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  • RumbleXRumble
    RumbleXRumble closed this thread because:
    I posted my reasons already so read them on here.
    00:22, December 2, 2017

    I'm  still not over this. I personally think that Alluka is, indeed, female and the reason why she is called as a "he" is because the family does not acknowledge her as family or human. 

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    • Knowing Togashi, Alluka probably has both male and female reproductive organs. I speculate the other Zoldyck children (excluding Killua & Milluki) are the same.

      Jokes aside, I think that Alluka is male, but is very feminine.

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    • actually the Zoldyck Family refers to Alluka as "IT"

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    • Yes, but they do not know about Nanika, it is out of disrespect. While Alluka is most likely male (Killua clearly called him his "little brother" at the phone with Morel), Nanika is probably female, that is why he says he needs "her" powers and uses feminine pronouns when talking about them. 

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    • Alluka was a cis male however Nanika may be female and Alluka doesn't want to make Nanika feel uncomfortable so she likely transitioned to be a girl. Killua says that Alluka is his little SISTER multiple times (the manga misgenders her). The Zoldyck family misgenders her because they're asses and they don't like Nanika and so they disrespect her.

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    • Alluka is a trans girl. The only people who even call her a boy are the villians in the show. Stop making up excuses to try and erase the fact that alluka is a girl. Stop with the cissexism and transphobia. Alluka says that she is a girl, so you need to leave it at that. Stop trying to figure out what a little girls genetalia is, its weird. Respect the fact that trans people have an inkling of representation. 

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    • Coolkid420 wrote:
      Alluka is a trans girl. The only people who even call her a boy are the villians in the show. Stop making up excuses to try and erase the fact that alluka is a girl. Stop with the cissexism and transphobia. Alluka says that she is a girl, so you need to leave it at that. Stop trying to figure out what a little girls genetalia is, its weird. Respect the fact that trans people have an inkling of representation. 

      Calm down, why don't you? We are still waiting from a confirmation from the manga or Togashi himself. 

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    • And actually, Killua himself called Alluka his "little brother" while on the phone with Morel...

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    • This might just be my opinion but in the anime, Killua explicitly states Alluka is a girl. Whether or not Alluka has both male and female reproductive organs, or she just feels comfortable in a womens body (or the Nanika being a girl thing) most people says he is a girl. Alluka's family probably doesnt refer to her as 'she' like Killua, because they either won't acccept the fact that she may be trans, don't really care for her opinion, or just call her an 'it' becasue they're disrespectful or disgusted. I think in the gender portion of the article, it should state her gender as male for people who want to know, but also say that she mainly uses female pronouns. Although officially her situation hasnt really been talked about in deph, it should show up there. And even if it's the Nanika thing causing her to act feminine, thats fine. Its not like its corrupting her into being different. Being trans isnt a bad thing.

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    •  

      First time I'm actually going into an argument like this but some people(don't mean you) are just being straight up dicks about this whole thing and it's getting a bit annoying:

      A Lot of people throw the "killua called her a girl so Alluka must be a girl" argument in there, but I'm pretty sure that's just Killua being nice. After all, Alluka clearly looks and acts like a girl and may very well be a female in nature and psyche, but that doesn't change the fact that biologically Alluka would still be male, plus like Martial said Killua called Alluka his little brother on the phone to Morel. Now if you look at other people in the Zoldyck estate that aren't as understanding as Killua(and by understanding I literally mean understand Alluka's female psyche), they would obviously go for the more logical way of referring to Alluka using "he", because that's his actual gender if you don't take his emotions into account. But, for now let's say that they are massive dicks and would refer to Alluka as male even if he was a girl. Even so, before they even knew about Nanika and the way it kills(the reason they resent him), they still referred to Alluka as male, pretty much disproving that the Zoldyck call alluka a boy just to be dicks.  And I mean there's the tiny detail of her gender being confirmed to be male in the OFFICIAL DATA BOOK!! But you know, who listens to official sources and confirmations these days when you can just use wild speculation and force your opinion on others without logic or sense! Am I right?

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    • Pigzillion wrote:A Lot of people throw the "killua called her a girl so Alluka must be a girl" argument in there, but I'm pretty sure that's just Killua being nice. After all, Alluka clearly looks and acts like a girl and may very well be a female in nature and psyche, but that doesn't change the fact that biologically Alluka would still be male, plus like Martial said Killua called Alluka his little brother on the phone to Morel. Now if you look at other people in the Zoldyck estate that aren't as understanding as Killua(and by understanding I literally mean understand Alluka's female psyche), they would obviously go for the more logical way of referring to Alluka using "he", because that's his actual gender if you don't take his emotions into account. But, for now let's say that they are massive dicks and would refer to Alluka as male even if he was a girl. Even so, before they even knew about Nanika and the way it kills(the reason they resent him), they still referred to Alluka as male, pretty much disproving that the Zoldyck call alluka a boy just to be dicks.  And I mean there's the tiny detail of her gender being confirmed to be male in the OFFICIAL DATA BOOK!! But you know, who listens to official sources and confirmations these days when you can just use wild speculation and force your opinion on others without logic or sense! Am I right?

      I'm sorry if i wasnt totally clear, but I did state the fact that what I said was my opinion. My statement was in no way true.

      Now I do believe that Alluka was born with male reproductive organs, technically (I guess) making her a male. But, some people born into male bodies feel uncomfortable or like they don't belong, so they decide to come out as transgender, and go by different pronouns such as a male going from he/him to she/her or they/them. This is what I believe is Alluka's situation (or something close to it). Some reasons she may feel more comfortable in a male's body are because she has been stuck in that room for a very long portion of her life, causing her body to become frail. This couuld be a trigger into maing her feel more comfortable dressing for her body type and being called a female. Another reason could be Nankia. Who knows, maybe Nanika's gender is female, anId that affects Alluka some ways, causing her transer. Or yes, she could just have a female mindset or psyche. 

      The reason I specifically brough up Killua refering to Alluka as a girl is becaus he has been the one to spend the most time with her, so he is the one who would probably be the most accepting of any of her choices. Him calling her a female could be out of respect for her decisions, or just him being a good big brother.  Some reasons her could have called her a him on the phone with Morel could be that some people are less accepting of these types of things, or that she is indeed a male, and he wants to make that clear. 

      The Zoldyks obviously hold hate towards Alluka, saying she is a monster. They may not have taken the time to really get to know her enough to know how she feels. They call her either 'he' or 'it'. The 'it' is abviously meant as negative, but the 'he' could be them not knowing any better (Alluka coming out). Some of the Zoldyk butlers though, are fine with this. Canary accompanied Killua, Gotoh, Alluka, and Tsubone for the sole reason of having another female accompany Alluka. Both canary and Tsubone refer to Alluka as she as well. 

      Now one more time, I do belive Alluka was born as male, and still does have a male body. she just isnt comfortable with it and chose female.  I'm not trying to force my opinion onto others, i'm just trying to back it up with details from the anime/manga. 

      NOW JUST TO MAKE THIS CLEAR ONE MORE TIME. THIS IS MY OPINION. THERE IS NOTHING OFFICIALLY STATING ALLUKA IS TRANS, ITS JUST ME HOPING FOR TRANS CHARACTERS IN MANGA THAT ARENT JUST FOR KINKS OR PLEASURE. NOT SAYING THERE ARENT ANY, JUST NOT ENOUGH. 

      (and another thing is I didnt notice the 'gender abiguity' section of this article, wich is the main reason I posted that comment which is my mistake but now that I'm here I should just go all out)

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    • FruityJiggles wrote:
      Pigzillion wrote:A Lot of people throw the "killua called her a girl so Alluka must be a girl" argument in there, but I'm pretty sure that's just Killua being nice. After all, Alluka clearly looks and acts like a girl and may very well be a female in nature and psyche, but that doesn't change the fact that biologically Alluka would still be male, plus like Martial said Killua called Alluka his little brother on the phone to Morel. Now if you look at other people in the Zoldyck estate that aren't as understanding as Killua(and by understanding I literally mean understand Alluka's female psyche), they would obviously go for the more logical way of referring to Alluka using "he", because that's his actual gender if you don't take his emotions into account. But, for now let's say that they are massive dicks and would refer to Alluka as male even if he was a girl. Even so, before they even knew about Nanika and the way it kills(the reason they resent him), they still referred to Alluka as male, pretty much disproving that the Zoldyck call alluka a boy just to be dicks.  And I mean there's the tiny detail of her gender being confirmed to be male in the OFFICIAL DATA BOOK!! But you know, who listens to official sources and confirmations these days when you can just use wild speculation and force your opinion on others without logic or sense! Am I right?
      I'm sorry if i wasnt totally clear, but I did state the fact that what I said was my opinion. My statement was in no way true.

      Now I do believe that Alluka was born with male reproductive organs, technically (I guess) making her a male. But, some people born into male bodies feel uncomfortable or like they don't belong, so they decide to come out as transgender, and go by different pronouns such as a male going from he/him to she/her or they/them. This is what I believe is Alluka's situation (or something close to it). Some reasons she may feel more comfortable in a male's body are because she has been stuck in that room for a very long portion of her life, causing her body to become frail. This couuld be a trigger into maing her feel more comfortable dressing for her body type and being called a female. Another reason could be Nankia. Who knows, maybe Nanika's gender is female, anId that affects Alluka some ways, causing her transer. Or yes, she could just have a female mindset or psyche. 

      The reason I specifically brough up Killua refering to Alluka as a girl is becaus he has been the one to spend the most time with her, so he is the one who would probably be the most accepting of any of her choices. Him calling her a female could be out of respect for her decisions, or just him being a good big brother.  Some reasons her could have called her a him on the phone with Morel could be that some people are less accepting of these types of things, or that she is indeed a male, and he wants to make that clear. 

      The Zoldyks obviously hold hate towards Alluka, saying she is a monster. They may not have taken the time to really get to know her enough to know how she feels. They call her either 'he' or 'it'. The 'it' is abviously meant as negative, but the 'he' could be them not knowing any better (Alluka coming out). Some of the Zoldyk butlers though, are fine with this. Canary accompanied Killua, Gotoh, Alluka, and Tsubone for the sole reason of having another female accompany Alluka. Both canary and Tsubone refer to Alluka as she as well. 

      Now one more time, I do belive Alluka was born as male, and still does have a male body. she just isnt comfortable with it and chose female.  I'm not trying to force my opinion onto others, i'm just trying to back it up with details from the anime/manga. 

      NOW JUST TO MAKE THIS CLEAR ONE MORE TIME. THIS IS MY OPINION. THERE IS NOTHING OFFICIALLY STATING ALLUKA IS TRANS, ITS JUST ME HOPING FOR TRANS CHARACTERS IN MANGA THAT ARENT JUST FOR KINKS OR PLEASURE. NOT SAYING THERE ARENT ANY, JUST NOT ENOUGH. 

      (and another thing is I didnt notice the 'gender abiguity' section of this article, wich is the main reason I posted that comment which is my mistake but now that I'm here I should just go all out)

      Oh I wasn't talking about you when I was on about people forcing thhere opinions onto others. Sorry if you thought that, guess I should have made it more clear. And I pretty much agree with eveything you said there(if that matters).

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      Oh I wasn't talking about you when I was on about people forcing thhere opinions onto others. Sorry if you thought that, guess I should have made it more clear. And I pretty much agree with eveything you said there(if that matters).

      Holy shit I am sooo sorry ;-;

      aggh no its my fault, I shouldnt have just assumed that comment was directed towards me.

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    • FruityJiggles wrote:
      Pigzillion wrote:
      Oh I wasn't talking about you when I was on about people forcing thhere opinions onto others. Sorry if you thought that, guess I should have made it more clear. And I pretty much agree with eveything you said there(if that matters).

      Holy shit I am sooo sorry ;-;

      aggh no its my fault, I shouldnt have just assumed that comment was directed towards me.

      Aha don't worry. I should have made it more clear.

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      Coolkid420 wrote:
      Alluka is a trans girl. The only people who even call her a boy are the villians in the show. Stop making up excuses to try and erase the fact that alluka is a girl. Stop with the cissexism and transphobia. Alluka says that she is a girl, so you need to leave it at that. Stop trying to figure out what a little girls genetalia is, its weird. Respect the fact that trans people have an inkling of representation. 
      Calm down, why don't you? We are still waiting from a confirmation from the manga or Togashi himself. 

      im sorry that i, an actual real life young trans person, wants representation of an actual young trans girl. As you said we're still waiting for a confirmation from Togashi, so dont be so quick to assume shes a boy. 

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    • Coolkid420
      Coolkid420 removed this reply because:
      i didnt mean for the response to be posted as a reply, i meant for it to be a whole other separate reply of itself
      02:22, April 25, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • literally why does everyone care so much about whats inbeween a little kids legs. why does it matter what reproductive organs she was born with? thats not what gender is and youre missing the point entirely of what being trans is all about. dont give me any of that "well technichally speaking alluka has male reproductive organs, so that must mean theyre a boy" "alluka is BIOLOGICALLY a male." a penis doesnt mean someone is a boy, and a vagina doesnt mean someone is a girl. Ive also seen a lot of people on here say alluka has the "psche" of a girl and literally what does that even mean. please educate yourself on trans people better???

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    • Coolkid420 wrote:
      literally why does everyone care so much about whats inbeween a little kids legs. why does it matter what reproductive organs she was born with? thats not what gender is and youre missing the point entirely of what being trans is all about. dont give me any of that "well technichally speaking alluka has male reproductive organs, so that must mean theyre a boy" "alluka is BIOLOGICALLY a male." a penis doesnt mean someone is a boy, and a vagina doesnt mean someone is a girl. Ive also seen a lot of people on here say alluka has the "psche" of a girl and literally what does that even mean. please educate yourself on trans people better???

      Or we could stick to canon sources that claim Alluka is a boy? Like the Official Databook and anime scans?

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      Coolkid420 wrote:
      literally why does everyone care so much about whats inbeween a little kids legs. why does it matter what reproductive organs she was born with? thats not what gender is and youre missing the point entirely of what being trans is all about. dont give me any of that "well technichally speaking alluka has male reproductive organs, so that must mean theyre a boy" "alluka is BIOLOGICALLY a male." a penis doesnt mean someone is a boy, and a vagina doesnt mean someone is a girl. Ive also seen a lot of people on here say alluka has the "psche" of a girl and literally what does that even mean. please educate yourself on trans people better???
      Or we could stick to canon sources that claim Alluka is a boy? Like the Official Databook and anime scans?

      OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GET REKT KID!!!!! YOU'RE GONNA NEED SOME CREAM FOR THAT CAUSE YOU JUST GOT BUUUUUUUURRRRRRNED!!!!!!

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      - Darkchylde wrote:
      Coolkid420 wrote:
      literally why does everyone care so much about whats inbeween a little kids legs. why does it matter what reproductive organs she was born with? thats not what gender is and youre missing the point entirely of what being trans is all about. dont give me any of that "well technichally speaking alluka has male reproductive organs, so that must mean theyre a boy" "alluka is BIOLOGICALLY a male." a penis doesnt mean someone is a boy, and a vagina doesnt mean someone is a girl. Ive also seen a lot of people on here say alluka has the "psche" of a girl and literally what does that even mean. please educate yourself on trans people better???
      Or we could stick to canon sources that claim Alluka is a boy? Like the Official Databook and anime scans?
      OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GET REKT KID!!!!! YOU'RE GONNA NEED SOME CREAM FOR THAT CAUSE YOU JUST GOT BUUUUUUUURRRRRRNED!!!!!!

      http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s449/D-Chylde/Burn%20heal_zpsycl3pn7z.jpeg

      http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s449/D-Chylde/High%20Five_zpsxufw5a3y.gif
      High five, Alex!!!

      @Coolkid420: Don't take this reply that seriously. It is meant as a joke. The answer about the official databook and anime scans, however, is not.

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      Pigzillion wrote:
      - Darkchylde wrote:
      Coolkid420 wrote:
      literally why does everyone care so much about whats inbeween a little kids legs. why does it matter what reproductive organs she was born with? thats not what gender is and youre missing the point entirely of what being trans is all about. dont give me any of that "well technichally speaking alluka has male reproductive organs, so that must mean theyre a boy" "alluka is BIOLOGICALLY a male." a penis doesnt mean someone is a boy, and a vagina doesnt mean someone is a girl. Ive also seen a lot of people on here say alluka has the "psche" of a girl and literally what does that even mean. please educate yourself on trans people better???
      Or we could stick to canon sources that claim Alluka is a boy? Like the Official Databook and anime scans?
      OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GET REKT KID!!!!! YOU'RE GONNA NEED SOME CREAM FOR THAT CAUSE YOU JUST GOT BUUUUUUUURRRRRRNED!!!!!!

      http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s449/D-Chylde/Burn%20heal_zpsycl3pn7z.jpeg

      http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s449/D-Chylde/High%20Five_zpsxufw5a3y.gif
      High five, Alex!!!

      @Coolkid420: Don't take this reply that seriously. It is meant as a joke. The answer about the official databook and anime scans, however, is not.

      Hunter x Hunter... I watch that.

      Alluka's gender... I confirrm that

      Coolkid420?... I burn that

      Darkchylde... I high five that

      But I'm not a weeaboo.

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    • Coolkid420 wrote:
      literally why does everyone care so much about whats inbeween a little kids legs. why does it matter what reproductive organs she was born with? thats not what gender is and youre missing the point entirely of what being trans is all about. dont give me any of that "well technichally speaking alluka has male reproductive organs, so that must mean theyre a boy" "alluka is BIOLOGICALLY a male." a penis doesnt mean someone is a boy, and a vagina doesnt mean someone is a girl. Ive also seen a lot of people on here say alluka has the "psche" of a girl and literally what does that even mean. please educate yourself on trans people better???


      Honestly, whats betwen her legs really doesnt matter, but the reason we're all here is because the topic of this conversation is "Alluka's gender". Now I'm sure a lot of people here know damn well what being trans is, but becasue Alluka is a fictional character eople are going to bring up the fact, that yes in the handbooks Alluka was born with a dick. Alluka being trans has never been confirmed. Sure she seems just fine being a girl, and seems to prefer using female pronouns (my opinion is that she is a trans girl) but you shouldnt call people out on things like this. Alluka isnt canonly trans, and not all the people here believe she is. So leave them to their opinion, and state yours as well.

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    • FruityJiggles wrote:
      Coolkid420 wrote:
      literally why does everyone care so much about whats inbeween a little kids legs. why does it matter what reproductive organs she was born with? thats not what gender is and youre missing the point entirely of what being trans is all about. dont give me any of that "well technichally speaking alluka has male reproductive organs, so that must mean theyre a boy" "alluka is BIOLOGICALLY a male." a penis doesnt mean someone is a boy, and a vagina doesnt mean someone is a girl. Ive also seen a lot of people on here say alluka has the "psche" of a girl and literally what does that even mean. please educate yourself on trans people better???

      Honestly, whats betwen her legs really doesnt matter, but the reason we're all here is because the topic of this conversation is "Alluka's gender". Now I'm sure a lot of people here know damn well what being trans is, but becasue Alluka is a fictional character eople are going to bring up the fact, that yes in the handbooks Alluka was born with a dick. Alluka being trans has never been confirmed. Sure she seems just fine being a girl, and seems to prefer using female pronouns (my opinion is that she is a trans girl) but you shouldnt call people out on things like this. Alluka isnt canonly trans, and not all the people here believe she is. So leave them to their opinion, and state yours as well.

      I just hope he doesn't come back here, because now that Alluka's page has been unlocked, I feel like he'll be one of the people to start an edit war and it'll probably get isolated again.

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    • SaigonAlice
      SaigonAlice removed this reply because:
      no reason
      09:52, June 6, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • SaigonAlice
      SaigonAlice removed this reply because:
      this quote style is so weird
      09:54, June 6, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • SaigonAlice
      SaigonAlice removed this reply because:
      ugh
      10:03, June 6, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • Yes lets all calm down as Trans teens become homeless, have higher rates of suicide and are practically erased in all forms of Media. LETs ALL CALM DOWNNNNNNN!!!! WE SO LOGICAL!!!!

      Anyway Coolkid was being completely calm but 'stern'. I think you're asking him/her to calm down because you're uncomfortable with people fighting for equal representation and rights for Trans without licking your ass. Just a thought. 

      Oh and about the whole pronouns thing, we could always did what we did with Pitou and refer Alluka as "they", instead of "he", if Alluka's gender is so ambiguous?? 

      Seriously the fuckboi and trans silencing is strong in this thread.

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    • What on actual fuck, people.

      Personally, I have no qualms if Alluka is a boy or girl. I quite enjoyed Alluka as a character, no matter what the gender is.

      But damn.

      The Zoldyck Family calls Alluka a "he", Killua refers to Alluka as his "little brother", Official Databook and anime scans call Alluka a "he", and hell still breaks loose when this wiki calls Alluka a male. Did Alluka himself/herself state that he/she is transgendered?

      Surely, there are countless speculations in the Hunter fandom, but we are not accommodating all of them. One example A blog suggesting that Alluka is somehow related to the Dark Calamity, Ai. Although there are "proofs" or whatever you want to call them, this wiki cannot just go "meh" and say, "Sounds interesting. Let's put this in the article". No, non, nein. We wait for confirmations. As for Alluka's case, we already have the Official Databook.

      Unless Togashi gets off his lazy arse and confirms something about Alluka, we'll leave it just there. Or I guess seeing "he" in Alluka's article butthurts your eyes?

      Oh? Killua calls Alluka his little sister, but also mentions to Morel that Alluka is his little brother? Is this a simple miscalculation on the part of the animators then?

      What's that? Transphobia? Come back to me when Alluka downright mentions that he/she is transgendered.

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      What on actual fuck, people.

      Personally, I have no qualms if Alluka is a boy or girl. I quite enjoyed Alluka as a character, no matter what the gender is.

      But damn.

      The Zoldyck Family calls Alluka a "he", Killua refers to Alluka as his "little brother", Official Databook and anime scans call Alluka a "he", and hell still breaks loose when this wiki calls Alluka a male. Did Alluka himself/herself state that he/she is transgendered?

      Surely, there are countless speculations in the Hunter fandom, but we are not accommodating all of them. One example A blog suggesting that Alluka is somehow related to the Dark Calamity, Ai. Although there are "proofs" or whatever you want to call them, this wiki cannot just go "meh" and say, "Sounds interesting. Let's put this in the article". No, non, nein. We wait for confirmations. As for Alluka's case, we already have the Official Databook.

      Unless Togashi gets off his lazy arse and confirms something about Alluka, we'll leave it just there. Or I guess seeing "he" in Alluka's article butthurts your eyes?

      Oh? Killua calls Alluka his little sister, but also mentions to Morel that Alluka is his little brother? Is this a simple miscalculation on the part of the animators then?

      What's that? Transphobia? Come back to me when Alluka downright mentions that he/she is transgendered.

      Lol get rekt kid

      Darkchylde just rekt you.

      Wow, nicley put seems like an understatment! If this weren't the internet I'd probbly ask you to marry me. Hopefully that what you just said put an end to the ordeal, but we're probably not that lucky.
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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      Lol get rekt kid

      Darkchylde just rekt you.

      Wow, nicley put seems like an understatment! If this weren't the internet I'd probbly ask you to marry me. Hopefully that what you just said put an end to the ordeal, but we're probably not that lucky.


      Yeah, I kind of lost my shit back there because this argument is getting tiresome. If this weren't the internet I'd probably marry you, and we'll have sarcastic kids together!

      http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s449/D-Chylde/Yzma%20Maniac%20Laugh_zpsik7eyara.gif

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    • Dat Ezma Gif tho.

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    • To whoever changed the gender to 'female', thank you so, so much!

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    • Alright, Alluka is born a male but identifies as female. The reason her parent's do not consider her female is because they do not consider her part of the family. However within the 13th chairman arc Killua states "Because she's a girl and I don't trust her with you." meaning Killua deffiantly considers her female and in response to Killua's retort Tsubone says "Then I guess that's why I'm coming along." meaning Kikyo sent her to protect Killua and Alluka. Possibly meaning that she considers Alluka female privately.

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    • Watch episode 140 again from 6:48 to 6:54, Killua clearly said that Alluka is a girl. Since he is the only person who cares for her we can trust him.

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    • Alright people, look. At this point, your opinions don't matter that much at all. All your doing is repeating what other people have said and it's just exasperating. The wiki won't allow Alluka's gender to be changed until further evidence is provided to justify it. That's that. Think we should call her a girl? Good for you. But I, and everybody else here for that matter, couldn't care less because we've heard it all before. I'm outtie.

      *drops the mic and strides of stage*
      
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    • Soooo, one of the main protagonists calls Alluka a girl and demands she be called a girl isn't "evidence"? Last I checked Gon or any of the other dudes didn't need to drop their trousers to prove they're men. We all know they are because they refer to themselves as men. 

      I mean, unless you're waiting for Alluka to drop her pants to see "concrete" proof, then I don't quite understand what "evidence" means here. Togashi has never stated anywhere that Gon is a male (he's never had to), yet we all agree he's male because he uses male pronouns. Not sure why Alluka is exempt from this. 

      Either way, sorely disappointed with the switch back to male.

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    • Ijpyu wrote:
      Soooo, one of the main protagonists calls Alluka a girl and demands she be called a girl isn't "evidence"? Last I checked Gon or any of the other dudes didn't need to drop their trousers to prove they're men. We all know they are because they refer to themselves as men. 

      I mean, unless you're waiting for Alluka to drop her pants to see "concrete" proof, then I don't quite understand what "evidence" means here. Togashi has never stated anywhere that Gon is a male (he's never had to), yet we all agree he's male because he uses male pronouns. Not sure why Alluka is exempt from this. 

      Either way, sorely disappointed with the switch back to male.

      Or we could just take a look at the Official Databook, where it explicitly states that Gon and the others are male? The same Official Databook that also states that Alluka is male?

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    • Everyone and their mother knows Alluka was born biologically male. However, Alluka prefers to use female pronouns, and the only people who use male pronouns with her are the ones literally trying to kill her. None of us need the Databook to pat our heads and hold our hands through the issue of sex =/= gender. It's simply an issue of using the preferred pronouns that Alluka chooses to use, and acknowleding the existence of trans characters in a fairly popular manga. 

        Loading editor
    • Can't we just put on the gender description of Alluka's page "Male, but prefers to herself as Female"?

        Loading editor
    • No, because if we do that, the "Alluka is Female(!)" army wins, and at this point, they've pissed me off so much I don't want that to happen.

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    • I think the "army" you're referring to here is a moderately sized group of nerds (much like, say, you) and trans people who love hxh as much as everyone else does, and would like to see Alluka represented in the way that she canonly prefers. This isn't call of duty, dude. It's an on-going discussion. 


      Who was the one who changed it to 'female' to begin with? They didn't seem to have a problem with it.

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    • alluka identifies as as a female, therefore she is a girl no matter what "reproductive" organs she has lol

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    • I'm guessing that a lot of you are cis, and therefore have no right to talk about what Alluka's gender is. "Biologically" male/female is literally just an excuse that all you cisgendereds use to disrespect trans people's identity. stop misgendering her and go kill youselves please.

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    • Ocaens wrote:
      I'm guessing that a lot of you are cis, and therefore have no right to talk about what Alluka's gender is. "Biologically" male/female is literally just an excuse that all you cisgendereds use to disrespect trans people's identity. stop misgendering her and go kill youselves please.

      Please stop telling people to commit suicide as saying it repeatedly is seen as a form of cyberbullying/a death threat, which is illegal.

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    • Ocaens wrote:
      I'm guessing that a lot of you are cis, and therefore have no right to talk about what Alluka's gender is. "Biologically" male/female is literally just an excuse that all you cisgendereds use to disrespect trans people's identity. stop misgendering her and go kill youselves please.

      http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s449/D-Chylde/Freaking%20again_zpsqnslkqv3.gif
      http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s449/D-Chylde/Hades%20Rage_zps7itnctue.gif

      Ach mein gott. Ach mein verdammter gott.

      How many times do I have to explain? How many times do I have to go through the whole HxH manga and Databook, only to explain that we are only fucking calling Alluka as male until further confirmation. Because:

      1. Yes, other Zoldycks call Alluka "he". Been there, done that.
      2. Killua calls Alluka his "sister". Ah, the olden alibi.
      3. BUT in a phone conversation with Morel, Killua called Alluka his "little brother". *gasps*

      Why did Killua do that if Alluka is his sister?

      Now, before you shit yourself, answer that question first. (Maybe then we could continue with other points in the argument.)

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    • First off, I'm not siding with anyone who tells anyone else to kill themselves- Ocaens needs to cut that shit out. You're not helping.

      Second>

      1. BUT in a phone conversation with Morel, Killua called Alluka his "little brother". *gasps* Why did Killua do that if Alluka is his sister?

      Killua most likely did this for the same reason he never brought up or mentioned Alluka in the Hunter Exam, Yorkshin, OR Greed Island (and most of us *do* know Alluka wasn't a spur of the momen charcter re: the Zoldyck children names leading to one another), Killua wanted to keep the personal details about Alluka a secret- he wants to keep Alluka a secret. It's the same reason why he doesn't go into detail about Alluka being able to heal Gon. Whether it's because he's worried for everyone else OR worried for Alluka, it's hard to say. (If he brought too much attention to who she truly was, maybe people would start to suspect she's something from the Dark Continent?  But that's a whole other subject entirely, anyways-)

      If you're gonna keep referring to the Databook to back up your argument, you might as well change everyone's names to the original names they have in the book itself- meaning you should change Chrollo's name to Quwrof Wrlccywrlir and same with everyone else. I mean, I like the name Quwrof but ya know.

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    • Ijpyu wrote:
      First off, I'm not siding with anyone who tells anyone else to kill themselves- Ocaens needs to cut that shit out. You're not helping.

      Second>

      1. BUT in a phone conversation with Morel, Killua called Alluka his "little brother". *gasps* Why did Killua do that if Alluka is his sister?

      Killua most likely did this for the same reason he never brought up or mentioned Alluka in the Hunter Exam, Yorkshin, OR Greed Island (and most of us *do* know Alluka wasn't a spur of the momen charcter re: the Zoldyck children names leading to one another), Killua wanted to keep the personal details about Alluka a secret- he wants to keep Alluka a secret. It's the same reason why he doesn't go into detail about Alluka being able to heal Gon. Whether it's because he's worried for everyone else OR worried for Alluka, it's hard to say. (If he brought too much attention to who she truly was, maybe people would start to suspect she's something from the Dark Continent?  But that's a whole other subject entirely, anyways-)

      If you're gonna keep referring to the Databook to back up your argument, you might as well change everyone's names to the original names they have in the book itself- meaning you should change Chrollo's name to Quwrof Wrlccywrlir and same with everyone else. I mean, I like the name Quwrof but ya know.

      </p>


      We do. Just not in the actual title. It's off in the side column.

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      Ijpyu wrote:
      First off, I'm not siding with anyone who tells anyone else to kill themselves- Ocaens needs to cut that shit out. You're not helping.

      Second>

      1. BUT in a phone conversation with Morel, Killua called Alluka his "little brother". *gasps* Why did Killua do that if Alluka is his sister?

      Killua most likely did this for the same reason he never brought up or mentioned Alluka in the Hunter Exam, Yorkshin, OR Greed Island (and most of us *do* know Alluka wasn't a spur of the momen charcter re: the Zoldyck children names leading to one another), Killua wanted to keep the personal details about Alluka a secret- he wants to keep Alluka a secret. It's the same reason why he doesn't go into detail about Alluka being able to heal Gon. Whether it's because he's worried for everyone else OR worried for Alluka, it's hard to say. (If he brought too much attention to who she truly was, maybe people would start to suspect she's something from the Dark Continent?  But that's a whole other subject entirely, anyways-)

      If you're gonna keep referring to the Databook to back up your argument, you might as well change everyone's names to the original names they have in the book itself- meaning you should change Chrollo's name to Quwrof Wrlccywrlir and same with everyone else. I mean, I like the name Quwrof but ya know.

      We do. Just not in the actual title. It's off in the side column.

      Alex does have a point, you know. If you take time actually reading the articles, their Databook names are listed in the trivia section. Same goes for Alluka's gender; there is the section gender ambiguity.

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    • I'm aware that the names are in the trivia section, but I'm talking about replacing the names they have on their titles. I can appreciate a gender section for Alluka, and I can appreciate being able to discuss Alluka's gender here, but the fact remains that Alluka being considered canonly 'male' defeats the purpose of making her gender ambiguous to begin with. Alluka chooses to consider herself female, and like Rumble x Rumble mentioned, mods could simply put: Biologcally male, but considers herself female or

      Gender: Female (Biologically: Male)


      I wish the mod who *had* changed it to female was here to explain why they felt the need to change it. It's just a matter of respecting what the character chooses to identify as.

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    • Alright, look. Since we are all so certain that Alluka's gender is ambiguous, I would change the pronouns in his article into "they" and "them" (if other admins, i.e. OPN, agree). Because "Gender: Female (Biologically: Male)" would initiate another debate, and other fans would be desperate to see Alluka's gender as solid female.

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      Alright, look. Since we are all so certain that Alluka's gender is ambiguous, I would change the pronouns in his article into "they" and "them" (if other admins, i.e. OPN, agree). Because "Gender: Female (Biologically: Male)" would initiate another debate, and other fans would be desperate to see Alluka's gender as solid female.

      I'm against that decision personally. On the wiki we've really only had to do that for characters whose genders are unknown, Neferpitou being the most famous, and I think it should stay that way. It would just create unnecessary confusion in a place that people come to for facts about hunter x hunter, and the fact is, hunter x hunter says that Alluka is male. Unlike the problem with neferpitou, this isn't about not knowing someone's gender(biologically speaking), it's about what people think is "morally right". That's what's making Alluka's gender "ambiguous"; People's opinions, not a lack on information. I mean for fucks sake, we're talking about a fictional character who can grant wishes and whose family are assassins, in a goddamn anime about 2 kids fighting giant ants and clowns 'n shit! So can we please just trust the creators and leave Alluka's gender as male?

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      - Darkchylde wrote:
      Alright, look. Since we are all so certain that Alluka's gender is ambiguous, I would change the pronouns in his article into "they" and "them" (if other admins, i.e. OPN, agree). Because "Gender: Female (Biologically: Male)" would initiate another debate, and other fans would be desperate to see Alluka's gender as solid female.
      I'm against that decision personally. On the wiki we've really only had to do that for characters whose genders are unknown, Neferpitou being the most famous, and I think it should stay that way. It would just create unnecessary confusion in a place that people come to for facts about hunter x hunter, and the fact is, hunter x hunter says that Alluka is male. Unlike the problem with neferpitou, this isn't about not knowing someone's gender(biologically speaking), it's about what people think is "morally right". That's what's making Alluka's gender "ambiguous"; People's opinions, not a lack on information. I mean for fucks sake, we're talking about a fictional character who can grant wishes and whose family are assassins, in a goddamn anime about 2 kids fighting giant ants and clowns 'n shit! So can we please just trust the creators and leave Alluka's gender as male?
      http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s449/D-Chylde/Thank%20You_zpshn8bvpus.gif

      LOL. But jokes aside, you know people are going to lose their shit all over again if you say that, Alex. They want Alluka to be called "female" because he is "transgender". Yup, okay.

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    • She is trans, whether you post THANK YOU/brown-nosing gifs about it or not. Sorry, buddy.


      Anyone who goes against their biological gender is trans. They can be trans or nonbinary. This is elementary education, it isn't difficult to grasp. Anyone who wishes to be the gender they weren't assigned at birth is trans. Alluka wants to be a girl, so she is a girl- regardless of what her manipulative brothers believe.

      And before I forget, I'd like to know what everyone would consider 'evidence' in terms of proving Alluka is a girl (besides, her saying it). Would it just be Togashi giving a noncommital thumbs up to some interviewer asking 'is Alluka a girl?' because it seems like you're waiting for Togashi to prove that Alluka is *biologically* a girl, which she is not. Or are you waiting for him to give the thumbs up on him saying Alluka is trans specifically? Because knowing Japan and it's frighteningly comedic outlook on trans people (or "ookama" as they refer to them as) I don't think the evidence you're looking for will come any time soon. I will be gobsmacked if Togashi ever put his work in that kind of risk- when/if he decides to bring hxh back.

      This is why fans, and trans fans in particular are so adamant about regarding Alluka as trans, because she fits the criteria. Because they see someone they can relate to. For those of us who genuinely care about hxh and don't want to win a painstakingly stupid argument on the Interwebz, it's just about seeing a trans character in a positive light- and NOT comedic relief like you see nearly all the time in anime.

        Loading editor
    • Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. 

      Show something like that, cause the evidence that we have that Alluka is male is the OFFICIAL <------------ Dat meens fact) Hunter x Hunter data book, which says Alluka is male. I was gonna post a big long paragraph abput the issue again, but then I realised that it's probably further up on the thread since I've already discussed this before. And since it's come to the point where I can do that:

      Fuck this shit I&#039;m out

      I'm done

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    • Can we have a civil discussion about this without the obnoxious 4chan/tumblr gifs...

      Anyways, you're not acknowledging the issue here that is making the debate what it is. You can't exclude the opinions of those who are invested in hxh and Alluka as a character. You can shout 'DATABOOK!!!' until you lose your voice, it hardly makes a difference that Alluka fits the trans definition to a T. You've made this blatant observation into a personal attack and now this is a debacle between 'GRR THOSE DARN TRANS/CIS FANATICS!'

      That isn't the point here. You can't deny that Alluka prefers to be a female.

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    • Ijpyu wrote:
      Can we have a civil discussion about this without the obnoxious 4chan/tumblr gifs...

      Anyways, you're not acknowledging the issue here that is making the debate what it is. You can't exclude the opinions of those who are invested in hxh and Alluka as a character. You can shout 'DATABOOK!!!' until you lose your voice, it hardly makes a difference that Alluka fits the trans definition to a T. You've made this blatant observation into a personal attack and now this is a debacle between 'GRR THOSE DARN TRANS/CIS FANATICS!'

      That isn't the point here. You can't deny that Alluka prefers to be a female.

      Well, yes I can because she's never said that he prefers to be female, nor has she ever used female pronouns to identify himself. She's never even mentioned his gender once in the series so I don't understand why so many people are going around saying it as fact, when the only person that seems to identify Alluka as female in the show is Killua. Granted, while he is most likely the closest to Alluka emotionally speaking, it doesn't prove anything. It merely supports it. Doesn't matter anyway now. Because people didn't listen Alluka's page got locked so now no-one can contribute. In conclusion:

      Bitch please








      You ain&#039;t got the answers
        Loading editor
    • And the memes won't be going anytime soon. Also I can't copy and paste things into the text boxes so now I've uploaded them onto the wiki's image cash... So shit.

        Loading editor
    • It looks like you've had no choice but to resort to the lowest point of civil discourse, which is name-calling/not taking anything seriously- so here we go, this'll be my last post on here since trying to talk this out is much like trying to yell over a bunch of two-year olds (with memes and gifs, no less). There's no sense in turning a discussion into a high school fight, so I'm not gonna go down that road.

      When Killua yells at Nanika never to come out, Alluka says that 'Nanika is in her room crying', and 'You made her cry', all using female pronouns. Nanika is Alluka, there's no point in seperating the two- (unless you're willing to acknowledge that Nanika is female). It proves that Alluka sees herself as a little girl. If she didn't, she would've said something when Killua introduced her to Gon as "the best little sister."

      But like I said, you've taken trans people and trans matters as a personal attack for some reason I really can't imagine, and now you're getting defensive because trans people want a good representation in anime and not a joke. Well, I hope when you get older you'll resolve these personal issues within yourself and find a bit of peace in it. I'm climbing an uphill battle and there's no point in going any lower. I'm out.

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    • 19327 403240596524904 8434108221807436809 n
      Akulla is a great  calamitie

      Now I wait your butt hurt

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    • MethodMan11 wrote:
      19327 403240596524904 8434108221807436809 n
      Akulla is a great  calamitie

      Now I wait your butt hurt

      What does that even mean?

        Loading editor
    • Ijpyu wrote:
      It looks like you've had no choice but to resort to the lowest point of civil discourse, which is name-calling/not taking anything seriously- so here we go, this'll be my last post on here since trying to talk this out is much like trying to yell over a bunch of two-year olds (with memes and gifs, no less). There's no sense in turning a discussion into a high school fight, so I'm not gonna go down that road.

      When Killua yells at Nanika never to come out, Alluka says that 'Nanika is in her room crying', and 'You made her cry', all using female pronouns. Nanika is Alluka, there's no point in seperating the two- (unless you're willing to acknowledge that Nanika is female). It proves that Alluka sees herself as a little girl. If she didn't, she would've said something when Killua introduced her to Gon as "the best little sister."

      But like I said, you've taken trans people and trans matters as a personal attack for some reason I really can't imagine, and now you're getting defensive because trans people want a good representation in anime and not a joke. Well, I hope when you get older you'll resolve these personal issues within yourself and find a bit of peace in it. I'm climbing an uphill battle and there's no point in going any lower. I'm out.

      Y-You mean it's over? It's finally over!? HAZZA!! IT'S FINALLY OVER!! 

        Loading editor
    • It means the gender is supposed to be unknown because Togashi has a boner for unknown genders.

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    • So true.

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      Well, yes I can because she's never said that he prefers to be female, nor has she ever used female pronouns to identify himself.

      I hate taking part in this kind of conversation but I feel the need to point out that this is wrong, Alluka specifically wants to acknowledged as a "good girl" in chapter 330 and uses the super-feminine "atashi" personal pronoun (and atashi isn't an ambiguous pronoun like boku can be, atashi is really only used by girls and sometimes by drag queen/"okama" stereotype characters).

      So any argument against Alluka not being a girl because "she never refers to herself as a girl, it's just killua" is just wrong.

      (and the "databook argument" really doesn't hold much weight when Togashi had already retconned Zoldyck-relevant information, making the databook obsolete since 2006-ish)

      But I'll be leaving this conversation now since it's just full of people who hear only what they want to hear.

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    • Ijpyu wrote:
      It looks like you've had no choice but to resort to the lowest point of civil discourse, which is name-calling/not taking anything seriously- so here we go, this'll be my last post on here since trying to talk this out is much like trying to yell over a bunch of two-year olds (with memes and gifs, no less). There's no sense in turning a discussion into a high school fight, so I'm not gonna go down that road.

      When Killua yells at Nanika never to come out, Alluka says that 'Nanika is in her room crying', and 'You made her cry', all using female pronouns. Nanika is Alluka, there's no point in seperating the two- (unless you're willing to acknowledge that Nanika is female). It proves that Alluka sees herself as a little girl. If she didn't, she would've said something when Killua introduced her to Gon as "the best little sister."

      But like I said, you've taken trans people and trans matters as a personal attack for some reason I really can't imagine, and now you're getting defensive because trans people want a good representation in anime and not a joke. Well, I hope when you get older you'll resolve these personal issues within yourself and find a bit of peace in it. I'm climbing an uphill battle and there's no point in going any lower. I'm out.

      First of all, I do not recall any name-calling. You make it personal by calling us two-year olds, thus the joke's on you. Secondly, I assume you are getting frustrated by the memes and gifs; the joke's on you as well, since you let those provoke you.

      Now, here's your problem. I proposed a solution for this matter: referring Alluka as "they" or "their" in his article. BUT you chose to ignore this, going around and forcing in our throats that Alluka needs to be female in the article. Ignoring the Databook facts, Killua also called Alluka his little brother. Even if he intends to protect Alluka (like you said before), his gender is the least important now. Gender does not have anything to do with Alluka's wish granting; Alluka could grant wishes whether male or female. Even before the Zoldycks understood Alluka's power, they referred to Alluka as "he".

      Going back to my point, we could just use gender neutral pronouns.

      If there are any others who want to leave, the door is open.

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      Ijpyu wrote:
      It looks like you've had no choice but to resort to the lowest point of civil discourse, which is name-calling/not taking anything seriously- so here we go, this'll be my last post on here since trying to talk this out is much like trying to yell over a bunch of two-year olds (with memes and gifs, no less). There's no sense in turning a discussion into a high school fight, so I'm not gonna go down that road.

      When Killua yells at Nanika never to come out, Alluka says that 'Nanika is in her room crying', and 'You made her cry', all using female pronouns. Nanika is Alluka, there's no point in seperating the two- (unless you're willing to acknowledge that Nanika is female). It proves that Alluka sees herself as a little girl. If she didn't, she would've said something when Killua introduced her to Gon as "the best little sister."

      But like I said, you've taken trans people and trans matters as a personal attack for some reason I really can't imagine, and now you're getting defensive because trans people want a good representation in anime and not a joke. Well, I hope when you get older you'll resolve these personal issues within yourself and find a bit of peace in it. I'm climbing an uphill battle and there's no point in going any lower. I'm out.

      First of all, I do not recall any name-calling. You make it personal by calling us two-year olds, thus the joke's on you. Secondly, I assume you are getting frustrated by the memes and gifs; the joke's on you as well, since you let those provoke you.

      Now, here's your problem. I proposed a solution for this matter: referring Alluka as "they" or "their" in his article. BUT you chose to ignore this, going around and forcing in our throats that Alluka needs to be female in the article. Ignoring the Databook facts, Killua also called Alluka his little brother. Even if he intends to protect Alluka (like you said before), his gender is the least important now. Gender does not have anything to do with Alluka's wish granting; Alluka could grant wishes whether male or female. Even before the Zoldycks understood Alluka's power, they referred to Alluka as "he".

      Going back to my point, we could just use gender neutral pronouns.

      If there are any others who want to leave, the door is open.

      I think he's Gon, but I may be wrong. 

      Hehehe. I made a pun and a rhyme, just look at that, I'm a doctor like Seuss minus the Cat in the Hat.

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      • sigh* God I'm just terrible.
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    • Pigzillion wrote:

      I think he's Gon, but I may be wrong. 

      Hehehe. I made a pun and a rhyme, just look at that, I'm a doctor like Seuss minus the Cat in the Hat.

      Your pun literally made me giggle.

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    • MethodMan11 wrote:
      19327 403240596524904 8434108221807436809 n
      Akulla is a great  calamitie

      Now I wait your butt hurt

      I do hope Alluka turns out to be a Dark Continent calamity. That would be awesome. Also, we could have more screentime for Zzigg Zoldyck.

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      Pigzillion wrote:
      I think he's Gon, but I may be wrong.  Hehehe. I made a pun and a rhyme, just look at that, I'm a doctor like Seuss minus the Cat in the Hat.

      Your pun literally made me giggle.

      Then I regret nothing.

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      MethodMan11 wrote:
      19327 403240596524904 8434108221807436809 n
      Akulla is a great  calamitie

      Now I wait your butt hurt

      I do hope Alluka turns out to be a Dark Continent calamity. That would be awesome. Also, we could have more screentime for Zzigg Zoldyck.

      How cute of you to think we'll more than one epilogue chapter. Ok, I'll stop my wave of pessimism. Anyway, I hope he is. And just to be clear for the last time on the matter, since Shounen manga are full of oddballs (no, I'm not saying that transgender people are oddballs), I won't agree to change Alluka's gender until he says "I'm 100% a girl". And while it's true that Nanika has a feminine psyche, she is not Alluka.

      The whole problem with this thing is that, I admit it's partly my fault, it has become a war because some trans or trans-supporting people want Alluka to be like that at all costs. It drives me mad. I mean, Killua sems to be in love with Gon, but you don't find it anywhere on his page, simply because Shounen characters often act in unnatural ways. Sadly, it is still unlikely to find openly (and not comically) homosexual or anyway "sexually unhortodox" people in Shounen manga, and for the sake of accuracy, all we can write is that Alluka wears clothes that in the real (and not the HxH) world would be considered feminine.

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    • Anders: Killua called Alluka his "little brother" on the phone with Morel; we cannot rule out the possibility that Nanika is female and Alluka just a feminine boy (Gotoh remained with them, after all). In fact, he calls Alluka his sister when referring to Nanika's powers. Besides, keep in mind that Togashi himself used a masculine pronoun. I think all this would be solved if the serialization restarted. I can say I have a precise idea on what we should do with Alluka (of course, it's not an almighty solution), but I don't want to spark another debate.

      Alex: Be gentle...

      EDIT: I'd add that Hunterpedia is being needlessly attacked due to the uncertainty regarding Alluka's gender: not even one of the many transgenders in One Piece has ever been addressed with pronouns not matching their biological sex, most likely not out of disrespect, but because they are non-existent characters; on the Bleach wiki, the possibility of Giselle Gewelle not being female has not even been hinted at, despite her being exposed as male by another character.

      I apologize for the times I have been uselessly rude, but we are not trying to be monsters.

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    • Mountaintimber wrote:
      Pigzillion wrote:
      Well, yes I can because she's never said that he prefers to be female, nor has she ever used female pronouns to identify himself.
      I hate taking part in this kind of conversation but I feel the need to point out that this is wrong, Alluka specifically wants to acknowledged as a "good girl" in chapter 330 and uses the super-feminine "atashi" personal pronoun (and atashi isn't an ambiguous pronoun like boku can be, atashi is really only used by girls and sometimes by drag queen/"okama" stereotype characters).

      So any argument against Alluka not being a girl because "she never refers to herself as a girl, it's just killua" is just wrong.

      (and the "databook argument" really doesn't hold much weight when Togashi had already retconned Zoldyck-relevant information, making the databook obsolete since 2006-ish)

      But I'll be leaving this conversation now since it's just full of people who hear only what they want to hear.

      I think that the only problem here should be: are we 100% sure that Alluka is a transgender before adding it to his/her page (leaving aside the "No fictional characters in the other best-selling manga is addressed with pronouns not matching his/her biological gender since he/she does not exist" matter and whether or not Togashi really wants us to know the gender of certain characters)? My answer is no, at least for now, though Alluka is undoubtedly very effeminine. Furthermore, in my opinion, we should at least mention that Nanika is a female part of Alluka's psyche.

      All I want to say is that I can't agree when you say that, due to some retcon alterations going back to the 2006 Databook, WAY BEFORE Alluka was even introduced, we cannot give any credit to what Togashi says ever again, as if he wasn't the creator of the manga or did not know what he is (hopefully not "was") drawing. On the other hand, if you can demonstrate that in chapter 330 Alluka really says "a good girl" in Japanese (and not in the unofficial or the English translation, for the same reason we keep the pages of Riakke, Grachan and Golem gender-neutral), this proves he considers himself a girl. The one saying "I was a good girl" is revealed shortly after to be Nanika, both in the manga and the anime, despite not having dark eyes.

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    • "This inconsistency may be due to Killua's intimate and understanding bond with Alluka, hence he would know and care that Alluka identifies as female, versus Illumi and Milluki's cold and dehumanizing attitude toward Alluka."

      HXH Wikia editors confirmed to have cold and dehumanizing attitudes.

        Loading editor
    • RandallWeemesClassic wrote:
      HXH Wikia editors confirmed to have cold and dehumanizing attitudes.


      Pretty much sums us up.

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    • Hello everyone!  Even if Alluka has male reproductive organs, that does not mean she's a boy.  Yes, you have 'canon' proof (from a very outdated book that has had some of its contents retconned by Togashi himself, but whatever) that Alluka's sex is male.  However, right on the wiki's sidebar, it lists as "Gender: Male."  Gender is not the same as sex, and insisting it is is wrong and offensive.  From what we have seen in both the show and the manga, Alluka is a girl - she uses feminine personal pronouns, asks if she was a 'good girl,' etc. The person closest to her, Killua, makes sure to have female bodyguards come along because Alluka is a girl.  He directly states this in front of Alluka, who does not argue, show discomfort, or otherwise disagree with him.  It's been stated before, but I feel it's important to reiterate that the only time Killua says 'little brother' was when he was trying to withhold as much information as possible.

      Anyways, what I wanted to say was saying you won't change her gender until there's 'solid proof' is ridiculous.  This is basically saying, 'everyone is cisgender unless directly stated otherwise.'  It should be obvious why people are upset with your line of reasoning.  So please, listen to what we're saying.  Realize that these issues may be much more personal to us than you, which is why we're so adament.  In my opinion, Alluka is a trans girl, but what's NOT just my opinion is that either way, Alluka is a girl.  Thanks for listening.

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    • Five me the page where alluka asks to be called a good girl(the japanese version) and I'll join the Alluka is a Girl(!) army right now. No lie.

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    • Viviburn wrote:
      Hello everyone!  Even if Alluka has male reproductive organs, that does not mean she's a boy.  Yes, you have 'canon' proof (from a very outdated book that has had some of its contents retconned by Togashi himself, but whatever) that Alluka's sex is male.  However, right on the wiki's sidebar, it lists as "Gender: Male."  Gender is not the same as sex, and insisting it is is wrong and offensive.  From what we have seen in both the show and the manga, Alluka is a girl - she uses feminine personal pronouns, asks if she was a 'good girl,' etc. The person closest to her, Killua, makes sure to have female bodyguards come along because Alluka is a girl.  He directly states this in front of Alluka, who does not argue, show discomfort, or otherwise disagree with him.  It's been stated before, but I feel it's important to reiterate that the only time Killua says 'little brother' was when he was trying to withhold as much information as possible.

      Anyways, what I wanted to say was saying you won't change her gender until there's 'solid proof' is ridiculous.  This is basically saying, 'everyone is cisgender unless directly stated otherwise.'  It should be obvious why people are upset with your line of reasoning.  So please, listen to what we're saying.  Realize that these issues may be much more personal to us than you, which is why we're so adament.  In my opinion, Alluka is a trans girl, but what's NOT just my opinion is that either way, Alluka is a girl.  Thanks for listening.

      It was Nanika who asked Killua to call her a good girl, since Nanika calls Killua by name and Alluka calls him "Brother". Also, the Hunter fandom is actually 50-50 about Alluka. There are those who also believe Alluka is male, and others believe female.

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      Viviburn wrote:
      Hello everyone!  Even if Alluka has male reproductive organs, that does not mean she's a boy.  Yes, you have 'canon' proof (from a very outdated book that has had some of its contents retconned by Togashi himself, but whatever) that Alluka's sex is male.  However, right on the wiki's sidebar, it lists as "Gender: Male."  Gender is not the same as sex, and insisting it is is wrong and offensive.  From what we have seen in both the show and the manga, Alluka is a girl - she uses feminine personal pronouns, asks if she was a 'good girl,' etc. The person closest to her, Killua, makes sure to have female bodyguards come along because Alluka is a girl.  He directly states this in front of Alluka, who does not argue, show discomfort, or otherwise disagree with him.  It's been stated before, but I feel it's important to reiterate that the only time Killua says 'little brother' was when he was trying to withhold as much information as possible.

      Anyways, what I wanted to say was saying you won't change her gender until there's 'solid proof' is ridiculous.  This is basically saying, 'everyone is cisgender unless directly stated otherwise.'  It should be obvious why people are upset with your line of reasoning.  So please, listen to what we're saying.  Realize that these issues may be much more personal to us than you, which is why we're so adament.  In my opinion, Alluka is a trans girl, but what's NOT just my opinion is that either way, Alluka is a girl.  Thanks for listening.

      It was Nanika who asked Killua to call her a good girl, since Nanika calls Killua by name and Alluka calls him "Brother". Also, the Hunter fandom is actually 50-50 about Alluka. There are those who also believe Alluka is male, and others believe female.

      Never mind then. I take what I said back.

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      It was Nanika who asked Killua to call her a good girl, since Nanika calls Killua by name and Alluka calls him "Brother". Also, the Hunter fandom is actually 50-50 about Alluka. There are those who also believe Alluka is male, and others believe female.

      Ok then, I can understand not taking that part of my argument into account since that was Nanika, but what about the rest of what I've said?

      Also, as for the 50/50 split, I've only really seen Alluka called a boy on this website and Youtube.  Other sites, especially those that host fanfiction, have a large majority that say Alluka is a girl.  You may have qualms about citing Tumblr, but looking through the 'Alluka Zoldyck' tag only has fans calling her a girl and others being confused as to why Illumi and Milluki refer to her as a boy.  Not that this constitutes as 'evidence,' but saying the Hunter fandom has a 50/50 split seems inaccurate.

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    • I personally believe Alluka is a girl, Killua is in love with Gon, and Neferpitou is female. But since both sides have made good points, why not refer to Alluka as "them" like what was done with Neferpitou? Unless men have breast and wide hips now, Neferpitou is clearly female regardless of what older sources call her. That's like Gon being called female when he is clearly male imo, but this is about Alluka. So would calling them "them" or "they" be fine? 

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    • Viviburn wrote:
      Hello everyone!  Even if Alluka has male reproductive organs, that does not mean she's a boy.  Yes, you have 'canon' proof (from a very outdated book that has had some of its contents retconned by Togashi himself, but whatever) that Alluka's sex is male.  However, right on the wiki's sidebar, it lists as "Gender: Male."  Gender is not the same as sex, and insisting it is is wrong and offensive.  From what we have seen in both the show and the manga, Alluka is a girl - she uses feminine personal pronouns, asks if she was a 'good girl,' etc. The person closest to her, Killua, makes sure to have female bodyguards come along because Alluka is a girl.  He directly states this in front of Alluka, who does not argue, show discomfort, or otherwise disagree with him.  It's been stated before, but I feel it's important to reiterate that the only time Killua says 'little brother' was when he was trying to withhold as much information as possible.

      Anyways, what I wanted to say was saying you won't change her gender until there's 'solid proof' is ridiculous.  This is basically saying, 'everyone is cisgender unless directly stated otherwise.'  It should be obvious why people are upset with your line of reasoning.  So please, listen to what we're saying.  Realize that these issues may be much more personal to us than you, which is why we're so adament.  In my opinion, Alluka is a trans girl, but what's NOT just my opinion is that either way, Alluka is a girl.  Thanks for listening.

      Gosh, how I hate to butt in here again, but I NEED to give you a rational answer. We understand your point of sex and gender being two different things, but it doesn't matter if one side would gain more from being right. I mean, this is exactly what I meant when I said that calling Killua gay would be beneficial to the homosexual community, but it is not what we should do. And besides, I think there is more Gon X Killua material on the internet than any other HxH pairing, so the fandom can't be really relied on, as you highlighted.

      Since there are hints in every possible direction regarding Alluka, we should just list all the possibilities: Alluka is most certainly (biologically) a male, Alluka may or may not think of himself/herself as a girl, Alluka might be male and Nanika female (as I always say, Killua calls Alluka a girl only when he refers to Nanika's powers: he might do so to convince others that Nanika is human, too). Being feminine or being gay does not mean you are transexual, too, so let's keep this in mind anyway. Genderless pronouns are the most appropriate, for the moment. We have seen Togashi's new illustration: the manga might restart soon. Let's wait for a while and see what happens.

      And yes, it is uncommon for a Shounen manga to have transgender characters, and many of them resort to the most unthinkable excuses to protect the "orthosexuality" of their characters, it's the same with Killua, again. Besides, we do not necessarily consider them cisgender or leave out the possibility that they will not be cisgender in the future: simply, if no hint is given in that direction, there is no need to write it. I don't think you read "it's a straight boy/girl" anywhere on any page. Don't get me wrong, it would be nice if Alluka was a first in this sense: simply, unless we include all possibilities, everything we add to his page now is mere speculation.

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    • MartialManiac wrote:

      Gosh, how I hate to butt in here again, but I NEED to give you a rational answer. We understand your point of sex and gender being two different things, but it doesn't matter if one side would gain more from being right. I mean, this is exactly what I meant when I said that calling Killua gay would be beneficial to the homosexual community, but it is not what we should do. 

      Yes, but the difference here is that you don't list sexualities anyways, so it isn't like you're listing Killua as 'straight' when it's 'up for debate.'

      Since there are hints in every possible direction regarding Alluka, we should just list all the possibilities: Alluka is most certainly (biologically) a male, Alluka may or may not think of himself/herself as a girl, Alluka might be male and Nanika female (as I always say, Killua calls Alluka a girl only when he refers to Nanika's powers: he might do so to convince others that Nanika is human, too). 

      Even the time he directly stated, 'Alluka is a girl'?

      Being feminine or being gay does not mean you are transexual, too, so let's keep this in mind anyway.

      This is a jar of worms I'm not comfortable opening, but unfair hatred/dismissal towards the trans community for being 'stereotypical' has always been an issue.  There are plenty of people far more eloquent than me that talk about these things, so if you're interested, I encourage you to read about it!  Sexual orientation is separate from gender identity, so I don't really understand how 'being gay' would ever imply being trans.  Sorry, I'm not sure I get what you mean.

      Genderless pronouns are the most appropriate, for the moment. We have seen Togashi's new illustration: the manga might restart soon. Let's wait for a while and see what happens.

      OK, if that's what you're willing to concede.  I can't imagine me discussing this further would change anyone's mind at this point, but I can try.

      And yes, it is uncommon for a Shounen manga to have transgender characters, and many of them resort to the most unthinkable excuses to protect the "orthosexuality" of their characters, it's the same with Killua, again. Besides, we do not necessarily consider them cisgender or leave out the possibility that they will not be cisgender in the future: simply, if no hint is given in that direction, there is no need to write it. I don't think you read "it's a straight boy/girl" anywhere on any page. Don't get me wrong, it would be nice if Alluka was a first in this sense: simply, unless we include all possibilities, everything we add to his page now is mere speculation.

      Just as a side-note, Miyuki (a minor character from YYH) is explicitly stated to be trans, so this would not be a first in Togashi's works.  Though she wasn't a...great character, this fact still stands.

      I'm very tired at this point in time, but I want to add one more thing before I take my leave. Where in the actual text of HxH has it been stated that Alluka is a boy? "Little brother" and "little sister" have both been used (as I've mentioned previously, Killua only ever used 'little brother' to refer to Alluka when he was withholding as much information as possible), but it was never said, "Alluka is a boy!" like "Alluka is a girl!" was. So I don't understand why 'male' seems to be the 'default until proven otherwise' here. Why is that statement being overlooked? Is it not enough that one of the two people closest to Alluka directly referred to her, in front of her, to several people who knew them personally, as a girl?

      Sorry for being so long-winded. See ya around.

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    • @Vivburn I believe it's because the official databook calls Alluka a male. 

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    • Does anyone want to respond to the rest of my comment?

      OK, here's my proposition: based on what several people, including myself, have said and explained, we should change Alluka's gender to 'Female' and have a blurb about what the 2004 databook said in the trivia section, just like where the 'official romanizations' are located.  That's reasonable, right?  I mean, unless you want to refer to characters like Chrollo as Quwrof throughout entire articles instead of just mentioning it in trivia. (Not to mention the fact that the relation between Maha and Zeno in the databook has since been debunked in the actual manga, but mistakes happen)

      If the manga starts back up and states that Alluka is male, then there shouldn't be any problem with changing it to male since you'd have irrefutable evidence direct from the manga that no one could argue.  But as it stands, there's way more evidence IN-TEXT that Alluka is a girl.

      I apologize for any typos or grammatical errors I may have made, as well as any vagueness in my writing.  Like I've said, I'm not very eloquent!

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    • So, this thread has been inactive for nearly 3 weeks now with no counter-arguments to my last posts.  Just wondering why Alluka's gender hasn't been fixed yet!  Do any mods want to help out here?

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    • Viviburn wrote:

      If the manga starts back up and states that Alluka is male, then there shouldn't be any problem with changing it to male since you'd have irrefutable evidence direct from the manga that no one could argue.  But as it stands, there's way more evidence IN-TEXT that Alluka is a girl.

      The manga does state that Alluka is male. I know it also states that Alluka is female. Also, in the anime, it happened. One of the Japanese scans referred to Alluka as "son" of the Zoldycks.

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    • Viviburn wrote:
      So, this thread has been inactive for nearly 3 weeks now with no counter-arguments to my last posts.  Just wondering why Alluka's gender hasn't been fixed yet!  Do any mods want to help out here?

      No, because none of the mods agree with you. Only reason nobody's retorted "Your points" is because they've either already been said before and we don't want to repeat ourselves, or we're just tired of the argument. I know which side of the coin I fall onto.

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      No, because none of the mods agree with you. Only reason nobody's retorted "Your points" is because they've either already been said before and we don't want to repeat ourselves, or we're just tired of the argument. I know which side of the coin I fall onto.

      If you're just tired of the argument, why are you still so vehemently against changing Alluka's gender?  And absolutely no one has addressed my full argument.

      Viviburn wrote: Is it not enough that one of the two people closest to Alluka directly referred to her, in front of her, to several people who knew them personally, as a girl?

      No one has even attempted to respond to this part of my argument, which is a pretty big point.  

      And if NONE of the mods are interested in even discussing something like this, they're being pretty crappy mods in my opinion.  

      - Darkchylde wrote: The manga  does state that Alluka is male. I know it also states that Alluka is female. Also, in the anime, it happened. One of the Japanese scans referred to Alluka as "son" of the Zoldycks.

      Please direct me to this "Alluka is a male!" scene please, because I am genuinely unaware of such a scene.

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    • - Darkchylde wrote: The manga  does state that Alluka is male. I know it also states that Alluka is female. Also, in the anime, it happened. One of the Japanese scans referred to Alluka as "son" of the Zoldycks.

      Please direct me to this "Alluka is a male!" scene please, because I am genuinely unaware of such a scene.

      It's pretty much every single scene where the Zoldycks refer to Alluka rather than Killua.

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    • Well not that it's feasible evidence or anything, but in the manga Chapter 229 Kalluto mentions that he wants to get his brother back, and later in Chapter 326 it's revealed that he envies Alluka. Also in chapter Chapter 320 Illumi approaches Hisoka and reveals to him that the Zoldyck family has another younger brother and he wants to eliminate that person. And in Chapter 321 Killua when addressing Alluka says he not she, although yes, in Chapter 324 Killua calls Alluka a "girl". And I can't remember if Killua uses the male pronouns to address Alluka in the 2011 anime, but someone else can confirm it if they so please.

      However whatever I've stated probably again has no feasible evidence that Alluka is in fact "Male", I could be missing the entire point entirely, because Alluka could be using female pronouns, all an all considers him/herself to be a girl, dresses like a girl, and that all together means Alluka is a girl/transgender and we should change it because that's how it is. But the "MODS" and other editors refuse to do so, because of the rules stating in this wikia, that Alluka is a male, because of evidence from one of the Official Databooks, the Manga, and Anime. Not from fan-fiction, Tumblr, Forums, or just because someone said so and their opinion matters.

      Therefor I can suggest some plausible solutions:

      1. Either side concedes to the others opinion those being Alluka is Male/Female 2. We put up Alluka's gender as "Unknown", since if both sides can't agree upon a gender and there seems to be restless debates and bias even out everything and keep it on neutral grounds. 3. Someone that can get original Japanese scans of the chapters that I mentioned above and see what pronouns are used to address Alluka. 4. Have Alluka be consider Trans as Alluka's gender. 5. Change nothing keep on arguing about this topic even though either side knows better because the other side is right while the other is wrong. 6. We all patiently wait for Togashi to release more chapters of HxH and see if this topic is brought up again or not, who knows!

      ...To be honest I've held out on my opinions for the longest time, because I don't want to add on to a flame war/debate like this. I only follow the rules and regulations put up by the Mods of this wikia, and to be honest I have nothing against people whom considers themselves transsexual. Personally I hope this whole situation is cleared up soon and to be frank, I just to enjoy reading new chapters of HxH.

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    • Calm down, everyone. Since our side goes to "Male" and the Tumblr community (I've seen posts about how people there are complaining about us) and others who want to go with "Female", I am therefore changing all pronouns in Alluka's article to "Alluka or Alluka's", no matter how it hurts the eyes to see the name being repeated over and over again.

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      Calm down, everyone. Since our side goes to "Male" and the Tumblr community (I've seen posts about how people there are complaining about us) and others who want to go with "Female", I am therefore changing all pronouns in Alluka's article to "Alluka or Alluka's", no matter how it hurts the eyes to see the name being repeated over and over again.

      What's the point if you're just gonna keep Alluka's gender as "male" though? It change nthing other than making me cringe at looking at Alluka's name so many times.-

      Edit: You already did it?! No!! Now nobody wins and the flame war will continue! Change it back!! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      Calm down, everyone. Since our side goes to "Male" and the Tumblr community (I've seen posts about how people there are complaining about us) and others who want to go with "Female", I am therefore changing all pronouns in Alluka's article to "Alluka or Alluka's", no matter how it hurts the eyes to see the name being repeated over and over again.

      I personally think that under the gender ambiguity section it should also mention Silva calling Alluka an it but thanks for taking out the he/him pronouns.

      I'm personally going to continue to believe that Alluka is either a trans girl or bigender because Killua's opinions hold more weight than the rest of his family (especially when considering how psychologically abusive they are/were while raising Killua) regarding Alluka in my opinion.


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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      - Darkchylde wrote:
      Calm down, everyone. Since our side goes to "Male" and the Tumblr community (I've seen posts about how people there are complaining about us) and others who want to go with "Female", I am therefore changing all pronouns in Alluka's article to "Alluka or Alluka's", no matter how it hurts the eyes to see the name being repeated over and over again.
      What's the point if you're just gonna keep Alluka's gender as "male" though? It change nthing other than making me cringe at looking at Alluka's name so many times.-

      Edit: You already did it?! No!! Now nobody wins and the flame war will continue! Change it back!! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!

      Had to be done, Alex. People can decide whether to call Alluka "he or she". Me, I am still sticking with "he" when referring to Alluka.

      Ehhhx24 wrote:
      I personally think that under the gender ambiguity section it should also mention Silva calling Alluka an it but thanks for taking out the he/him pronouns. I'm personally going to continue to believe that Alluka is either a trans girl or bigender because Killua's opinions hold more weight than the rest of his family (especially when considering how psychologically abusive they are/were while raising Killua) regarding Alluka in my opinion.

      Well, my belief is that Alluka and Nanika are different genders (Alluka=male, Nanika=female). It is too early to suspect that Alluka's a transgender because everything about his character revolves around the wish-granting ability. We all know that Nanika is a girl (because she wants to be called "good girl" by Kil), but what about Alluka himself?

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    • But what about the data book?

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      But what about the data book?
      • Sighs* I am not sure either.
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    • Ehhhx24 wrote:
      - Darkchylde wrote:
      Calm down, everyone. Since our side goes to "Male" and the Tumblr community (I've seen posts about how people there are complaining about us) and others who want to go with "Female", I am therefore changing all pronouns in Alluka's article to "Alluka or Alluka's", no matter how it hurts the eyes to see the name being repeated over and over again.
      I personally think that under the gender ambiguity section it should also mention Silva calling Alluka an it but thanks for taking out the he/him pronouns. I'm personally going to continue to believe that Alluka is either a trans girl or bigender because Killua's opinions hold more weight than the rest of his family (especially when considering how psychologically abusive they are/were while raising Killua) regarding Alluka in my opinion.

      Wonderfully said.  I agree, especially that Killua knows Alluka better than any of the other Zoldycks.

      And still, no one has addressed the "Alluka is a girl!" scene with a proper response, but no pronouns is better than incorrect pronouns at least! 


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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      Pigzillion wrote:
      But what about the data book?
      • Sighs* I am not sure either.

      Then fuck those assholes!! You(the "Alluka is a girl(!)" army "fighters") can't just change the lore how you please to make it suit you. The whole reason the term "canon" exists is to avoid it, and staying true to the official time line is not "transphobic", it's sensible! I think this link covers the problem nicely. Now it has nothing to do with the topic, but the same situation applies. Basically Matt Patt goes through all this research, theory and general hard work in order to explain an aspect to the movie, and he comes up with the perfect explination. And yet at the end of the video, something said by one of the characters in Hitman destroys every single one of his explinations despite making no sense whatsoever. And all in a singlee sentence. But despite how stupid and ridiculous it is, that fact is STILL CANON, and has to stay part of the time line. Same thing applies to Alluka. Alluka says and does all these things like dressing up like a girl, saying "was I a good girl"(in the english translations which are not canon), and perfectly fits what I assume a transgender person would be like. But without confirmation it's all just a theory, and one which completly goes against what an official source stated was the truth. 

      Now for the love of god, don't let people that think Alluka should be transgender and fanfiction authors bully us into changing the Hunter x Hunter lore. Puff out your chest and tough through it. Cause at the end of the day, they're just anonymous walls of text on the internet that have done nothing for the wiki. And you're an admin that's actually done something for the wiki other than bitch and call us transphobic

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    • Viviburn wrote:
      Ehhhx24 wrote:
      - Darkchylde wrote:
      Calm down, everyone. Since our side goes to "Male" and the Tumblr community (I've seen posts about how people there are complaining about us) and others who want to go with "Female", I am therefore changing all pronouns in Alluka's article to "Alluka or Alluka's", no matter how it hurts the eyes to see the name being repeated over and over again.
      I personally think that under the gender ambiguity section it should also mention Silva calling Alluka an it but thanks for taking out the he/him pronouns. I'm personally going to continue to believe that Alluka is either a trans girl or bigender because Killua's opinions hold more weight than the rest of his family (especially when considering how psychologically abusive they are/were while raising Killua) regarding Alluka in my opinion.
      Wonderfully said.  I agree, especially that Killua knows Alluka better than any of the other Zoldycks.

      And still, no one has addressed the "Alluka is a girl!" scene with a proper response, but no pronouns is better than incorrect pronouns at least! 

      It's not wonderfully said at all. I don't give a fuck what Killua says. Togashi's voice has way more weight than any of the characters of the show, and Togashi says Alluka is a boy. So stop trying to change the Lore to suit your way of thinking.

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    • Pigzillion wrote:

      It's not wonderfully said at all. I don't give a fuck what Killua says. Togashi's voice has way more weight than any of the characters of the show, and Togashi says Alluka is a boy. So stop trying to change the Lore to suit your way of thinking.

      Calm down there, pal.  Actual text trumps side-materials.  Togashi is able to retcon things as he pleases, making old 'side info' debunked in later chapters, such as Maha and Zeno's relation.

      Here are some links to the Japanese text referring to Alluka as a girl:

      http://itsybitsyjoltik.tumblr.com/post/112831058956

      http://itsybitsyjoltik.tumblr.com/post/124890280776

      We're not "changing the lore" to suit our way of thinking- we're reading hxh with a better understanding of gender identity which makes it easier to see that Alluka's a girl.

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    • Viviburn wrote:
      Pigzillion wrote:

      It's not wonderfully said at all. I don't give a fuck what Killua says. Togashi's voice has way more weight than any of the characters of the show, and Togashi says Alluka is a boy. So stop trying to change the Lore to suit your way of thinking.

      Calm down there, pal.  Actual text trumps side-materials.  Togashi is able to retcon things as he pleases, making old 'side info' debunked in later chapters, such as Maha and Zeno's relation.

      Here are some links to the Japanese text referring to Alluka as a girl:

      http://itsybitsyjoltik.tumblr.com/post/112831058956

      http://itsybitsyjoltik.tumblr.com/post/124890280776

      We're not "changing the lore" to suit our way of thinking- we're reading hxh with a better understanding of gender identity which makes it easier to see that Alluka's a girl.

      Well yes, you are changing the lore, you're just changing it in a way that makes sense. It's just like that link I posted before. You can bring up a mass of evidence, findings and theories, but if it doesn't hold up with OFFICIAL CONFIRMATIONS, it don't mean shit, and the official confimation, by togashi, in the official(as in actual facts) Hunter x Hunter data book of magic and wonder, that Alluka. Is. Male!! It doesn't make any fucking sense! I realise this, and it would be much better for the transexual community and anime as a whole is Alluka was a girl, but it just isn't the case. So for the love of god, just drop it.

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    • Well, while someone (ahem won't mention names) is losing their shit over here, I'd just like to thank those who supported the trans Alluka ideal for being cohesive and consistent through this. I guess people simply can't imagine a trans character in a popular shounen manga who isn't the huge butt of a joke, or a super creepy villain, or a murder victim in some weird case. We hear the arguement that we won't know ~ for sure ~ unless Togashi says so for himself, but as most of us know, Togashi won't be returning for a while. And if he does, I highly doubt clearing up Alluka's gender is on the top of his priority list. People who want Alluka to be male probably realize this, and probably pray Togashi will never acknowledge it again.

      That's where fans are entitled to step in and fill in the gaps until the author *can* conclude for himself. Information is costantly changing (hence, why the Databook is not very relevant) and if Togashi does say Alluka is purely male, then the mods will obviously change it. Simple as that. Until then, I feel as though it's just plain and simple PROGRESS to allow Alluka to be a trans girl, to showcase her as a positive trans character and just get with the program already. Media is changing for the better. HunterxHunter wiki should jump on that bandwagon already.

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    • I literally JUST said that it'd be great for Alluka to be transgender, for both the shonan community and transgender one, but just because something could be good and progressive, you can't just say it is and completely go against the writer's(who dictates the plot) words. It'd be great for the homosexual community if Killua were gay, but it doesn't mean he is. The "People who want Alluka to be male probably realize this, and probably pray Togashi will never acknowledge it again" part of your message is just you saying we don't want Alluka to be male, when we never said that at all, and you're just trying to make us look like unprogressive right-wings who hate transgender's. The only reason this is an issue in the first place is because of people wanting a fictional(as in not real) character to identify as those people want them to, even though an official source completely goes against it, yet we're marked as bigets and arseholes for trying to explain this. Wanna know why I'm "losing my shit"? Cause this topic has 105 goddamn comments! It shouldn't be this big a deal! You're trying to defend a FICTIONAL character's right to identify, when you're just speculating about it in the first place. "I'd just like to thank those who supported the trans Alluka ideal for being cohesive and consistent through this"? Have you not read what people have said, There are people who identify Alluka as female who have told us to go commit suicide and have been named transphobic. On several occasions. When we don't do what they want and leave them to whine and pout, they go and vandalize the wiki like angry children. That sound cohesive and consistent to you? Cause to me it sounds like cyber bullying. Hell, I doubt you've even bothered to read anything more than 5 comments ago.

      Finally, no. As I have said before, fans are not entitled to step in and fill in the gaps. Fans may theorise and debate different possible outcomes, but if they could just "step in and fill in the gaps", any crappy fanfiction would be regarded as canon and part of the lore. And if this band

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    • The kagikakko (「」) around 女の子 are the Japanese equivalent of quotation marks.

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    • DinoTaur wrote:
      The kagikakko (「」) around 女の子 are the Japanese equivalent of quotation marks.

      Which instances are the quotations used in the manga?

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    • Actually, after a little research, I found that they can also be used for emphasis, so forget what I said.

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      I literally JUST said that it'd be great for Alluka to be transgender, for both the shonan community and transgender one, but just because something could be good and progressive, you can't just say it is and completely go against the writer's(who dictates the plot) words. It'd be great for the homosexual community if Killua were gay, but it doesn't mean he is. The "People who want Alluka to be male probably realize this, and probably pray Togashi will never acknowledge it again" part of your message is just you saying we don't want Alluka to be male, when we never said that at all, and you're just trying to make us look like unprogressive right-wings who hate transgender's. The only reason this is an issue in the first place is because of people wanting a fictional(as in not real) character to identify as those people want them to, even though an official source completely goes against it, yet we're marked as bigets and arseholes for trying to explain this. Wanna know why I'm "losing my shit"? Cause this topic has 105 goddamn comments! It shouldn't be this big a deal! You're trying to defend a FICTIONAL character's right to identify, when you're just speculating about it in the first place. "I'd just like to thank those who supported the trans Alluka ideal for being cohesive and consistent through this"? Have you not read what people have said, There are people who identify Alluka as female who have told us to go commit suicide and have been named transphobic. On several occasions. When we don't do what they want and leave them to whine and pout, they go and vandalize the wiki like angry children. That sound cohesive and consistent to you? Cause to me it sounds like cyber bullying. Hell, I doubt you've even bothered to read anything more than 5 comments ago.

      I *have* read all of the past comments, and some were right to call people out on being transphobic.

      Pigzillion wrote:
      A Lot of people throw the "killua called her a girl so Alluka must be a girl" argument in there, but I'm pretty sure that's just Killua being nice. After all, Alluka clearly looks and acts like a girl and may very well be a female in nature and psyche, but that doesn't change the fact that biologically Alluka would still be male,  

      That is the DEFINITION of transphobia, equating gender to sex.  I didn't want to drag old comments into this, but if you're willing to pull out hurtful things someone on our side of the arguement said a few months ago, then I can call out your old stuff, too.  The person who said 'kill yourself' was wrong, I'm not condoning their actions, and I know what it's like to be suicidal, but they haven't been in on this conversation for months.  Hunterbowl was talking about how calm and rational recent comments have been, because I'm sure they know how quickly dialogues like this can degrade to personal attacks and petty insults.

      Pigzillian wrote:
      Finally, no. As I have said before, fans are not entitled to step in and fill in the gaps. Fans may theorise and debate different possible outcomes, but if they could just "step in and fill in the gaps", any crappy fanfiction would be regarded as canon and part of the lore. And if this band

      What of the characters that came after the databook was released, then?  Do we need 'official' confirmation to list Komugi as female or Shoot as male? No, because we're able to understand the actual text of the manga without it being spelled out. Third-person gender-specific pronouns don't exist in Japanese. 'He' and 'she' should all really be replaced by names or be completely absent if translated word-by-word. This doesn't stop translators from using other clues from the text and deciding to make a distinction. What we mainly work with is 1. personal pronouns (俺, 僕, 私, or あたし, typically), 2. gender-specific terms such as 'old man' and 'girlfriend', and 3. appearance/behavior.
      Do you see what I'm trying to say? It's not like we call Pairo a guy because "Pairo's the best! He's great!" is said, because that in Japanese does not distinguish what gender Pairo is. It's because he uses 僕, a masculine pronoun, and his appearance and mannerisms reflect it. We don't need a databook to conclude that Pairo is male.
      I hope this makes sense.

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    • - Darkchylde
      - Darkchylde removed this reply because:
      Edit
      02:42, October 2, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • Viviburn wrote:
      Pigzillion wrote:
      I literally JUST said that it'd be great for Alluka to be transgender, for both the shonan community and transgender one, but just because something could be good and progressive, you can't just say it is and completely go against the writer's(who dictates the plot) words. It'd be great for the homosexual community if Killua were gay, but it doesn't mean he is. The "People who want Alluka to be male probably realize this, and probably pray Togashi will never acknowledge it again" part of your message is just you saying we don't want Alluka to be male, when we never said that at all, and you're just trying to make us look like unprogressive right-wings who hate transgender's. The only reason this is an issue in the first place is because of people wanting a fictional(as in not real) character to identify as those people want them to, even though an official source completely goes against it, yet we're marked as bigets and arseholes for trying to explain this. Wanna know why I'm "losing my shit"? Cause this topic has 105 goddamn comments! It shouldn't be this big a deal! You're trying to defend a FICTIONAL character's right to identify, when you're just speculating about it in the first place. "I'd just like to thank those who supported the trans Alluka ideal for being cohesive and consistent through this"? Have you not read what people have said, There are people who identify Alluka as female who have told us to go commit suicide and have been named transphobic. On several occasions. When we don't do what they want and leave them to whine and pout, they go and vandalize the wiki like angry children. That sound cohesive and consistent to you? Cause to me it sounds like cyber bullying. Hell, I doubt you've even bothered to read anything more than 5 comments ago.

      I *have* read all of the past comments, and some were right to call people out on being transphobic.


      Pigzillion wrote:
      A Lot of people throw the "killua called her a girl so Alluka must be a girl" argument in there, but I'm pretty sure that's just Killua being nice. After all, Alluka clearly looks and acts like a girl and may very well be a female in nature and psyche, but that doesn't change the fact that biologically Alluka would still be male,  

      That is the DEFINITION of transphobia, equating gender to sex.  I didn't want to drag old comments into this, but if you're willing to pull out hurtful things someone on our side of the arguement said a few months ago, then I can call out your old stuff, too.  The person who said 'kill yourself' was wrong, I'm not condoning their actions, and I know what it's like to be suicidal, but they haven't been in on this conversation for months.  Hunterbowl was talking about how calm and rational recent comments have been, because I'm sure they know how quickly dialogues like this can degrade to personal attacks and petty insults.

      Pigzillian wrote:
      Finally, no. As I have said before, fans are not entitled to step in and fill in the gaps. Fans may theorise and debate different possible outcomes, but if they could just "step in and fill in the gaps", any crappy fanfiction would be regarded as canon and part of the lore. And if this band

      What of the characters that came after the databook was released, then?  Do we need 'official' confirmation to list Komugi as female or Shoot as male? No, because we're able to understand the actual text of the manga without it being spelled out. Third-person gender-specific pronouns don't exist in Japanese. 'He' and 'she' should all really be replaced by names or be completely absent if translated word-by-word. This doesn't stop translators from using other clues from the text and deciding to make a distinction. What we mainly work with is 1. personal pronouns (俺, 僕, 私, or あたし, typically), 2. gender-specific terms such as 'old man' and 'girlfriend', and 3. appearance/behavior.
      Do you see what I'm trying to say? It's not like we call Pairo a guy because "Pairo's the best! He's great!" is said, because that in Japanese does not distinguish what gender Pairo is. It's because he uses 僕, a masculine pronoun, and his appearance and mannerisms reflect it. We don't need a databook to conclude that Pairo is male.
      I hope this makes sense.


      Could you state an example where calling people transphobic was justified? Transphobia is defined as "intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people" (Oxford Dictionary). Did anyone state that they didn't want Alluka to be female because they had negative feelings towards transsexuality?

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    • Dios mío, estas personas. Calm down. By all means, calm down. I have never acknowledged Alluka as male or female in his (I would continue referring to Alluka as "he") article, because we've been here before. People can make assumptions regarding his gender. We rely on what the Databook told us about the "five Zoldyck sons" and in the other side of the argument, people vehemently insist that Alluka is transgender. I do not think so. In my opinion, some people (a.k.a. SJWs) just view everything to have hidden meanings about gender, race, and whatnot. They freak out for everything that has something to do with gender, and go to lengthy explanations. Well, I am not saying you guys are like that, but from what I have observed from other comments, some people just literally and immediately bring on the hate because we don't agree with them.

      Going back to Alluka is a transgender. Again, I do not think so. Not because LGBT is quite popular now doesn't mean Togashi is going along with the "popular". He had Alluka's character in the early 2000's and probably didn't think that Alluka's gender argument would come this far. A son born into an elite family of assassins and with weird alter-ego that is, no doubt, a girl—but of course people would go great lengths to make Alluka appear to be a girl. As what we have seen, Alluka and Nanika are quite different; Killua himself stated that several times already.

      Tumblr bloggers, fanfiction authors and Killua/Alluka/Gon shippers (Yes, some people actually ship them) can believe that Alluka is female, or others can believe that he is male. That's fine. A win-win situation to both sides, right? But don't any one of you call any of us fucking transphobics and tell us to commit suicide over a little and quite shallow argument.

      Alluka's article is already gender neutral. Alex (Pigzillion) and myself believe that Alluka is male because the Databook and 2011 scan stated him to be a "son".

      If I read another childish comment that the pronouns "she/her" must be put into Alluka's article because the "she's a girl and she's so cute and precious oh my god look at her and Killua together" reason, I am changing the gender back to male.

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    • DinoTaur wrote:

      Could you state an example where calling people transphobic was justified? Transphobia is defined as "intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people" (Oxford Dictionary). Did anyone state that they didn't want Alluka to be female because they had negative feelings towards transsexuality?

      Thank you, Dino. Here, lemme give you back rubs and cookies.

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      DinoTaur wrote:

      Could you state an example where calling people transphobic was justified? Transphobia is defined as "intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people" (Oxford Dictionary). Did anyone state that they didn't want Alluka to be female because they had negative feelings towards transsexuality?

      Thank you, Dino. Here, lemme give you back rubs and cookies.



      Transphobia is also the dislike or prejudice of a trans ideal or the possibility of one. It is affiliated with snuffing out even the *possibility* of a transgender character before they can even be confirmed. In this cae, it is the equivalent of saying, "Listen, I have no issue with gay people- I just don't want that stuff around me in my face."

      Alluka may very well be trans, and no one wants to realize it, or face it, or have the idea of it anywhere near them.  That can be considered transphobic, and while I am not calling anyone transphobic here, I can also see why others would recongize it and jump to that conclusion.

      It is PAINFULLY obvious we have our biases, but regardless if you're from reddit or tumblr- the ambiguity remains, and is still up to debate. I firmly believe Alluka is a trans girl, and I will take no pronouns anyday over the wrong ones. It's the next best thing.

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      In my opinion, some people (a.k.a. SJWs) just view everything to have hidden meanings about gender, race, and whatnot. They freak out for everything that has something to do with gender, and go to lengthy explanations. Well, I am not saying you guys are like that, but from what I have observed from other comments, some people just literally and immediately bring on the hate because we don't agree with them.


      That's because we are desperate.

      Understand that anime and manga in general is a, quite frankly, terrible medium for transgender folk to exist. Look at Grell from Kuroshitsuji, or Hana from Tokyo Godfathers. Japan in general treats their trans folk horridly, and it's only to be expected that it's reflected in their media. When we see something that even has a HINT of positive trans representation, we do flip out. We DO freak out, because we want it to desperately be true. We want it to be real and we want to be a part of that community that, for once, is on the side of the protagonist. I'm not saying there will be a manga with a trans/nonbinary protag anytime soon, I'm just saying I feel like we should also be allowed to voice our concerns on this matter- which the mods have allowed us to to do, gratefully. I'm sure in other wikias, this conversation wouldn't even exist. 

      I am grateful for being able to voice my opinion, and I feel like it's only self-explanatory to...how to say it- explain our side of the situation. This doesn't have to be a big deal, no, but sometimes we need to really push to see the representation we want in our interests.

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    • DinoTaur wrote:
      Viviburn wrote:

      I *have* read all of the past comments, and some were right to call people out on being transphobic.


      Pigzillion wrote:
      A Lot of people throw the "killua called her a girl so Alluka must be a girl" argument in there, but I'm pretty sure that's just Killua being nice. After all, Alluka clearly looks and acts like a girl and may very well be a female in nature and psyche, but that doesn't change the fact that biologically Alluka would still be male,  
      That is the DEFINITION of transphobia, equating gender to sex.  I didn't want to drag old comments into this, but if you're willing to pull out hurtful things someone on our side of the arguement said a few months ago, then I can call out your old stuff, too.  The person who said 'kill yourself' was wrong, I'm not condoning their actions, and I know what it's like to be suicidal, but they haven't been in on this conversation for months.  Hunterbowl was talking about how calm and rational recent comments have been, because I'm sure they know how quickly dialogues like this can degrade to personal attacks and petty insults.

      Could you state an example where calling people transphobic was justified? Transphobia is defined as "intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people" (Oxford Dictionary). Did anyone state that they didn't want Alluka to be female because they had negative feelings towards transsexuality?

      Do you disagree that the comment I quoted was transphobic, a quote that equivilates to, 'gender identity doesn't matter, biological sex does'?   Did I say the person who said it hates trans folk?  No, I didn't.  However, what they said was transphobic, whether it was intentional or not.  People have the right to point this out and help others understand why it's not right.  Being called out for saying stuff like this...why is that being equated to the severity of the original comment?

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    • Ok, you wanted Japanese text...here it is! お兄ちゃん..... あたしジャマ...? いない方が家族仲良くできる?The page this is said can be found here: http://www.imagebam.com/image/545187162083006 It roughly translates to "Brother....am I a hindrance? If I wasn't here, would the family get along?" Two things to note: first, we know it's Alluka since she says 'brother' instead of 'Killua'. Second, Alluka uses あたし to address herself, which is a personal pronoun used by girls and young women. Here are some links that will define it:
      http://www.wordsense.eu/%E3%81%82%E3%81%9F%E3%81%97/ http://japanese.about.com/od/Grammar/a/Personal-Pronouns.htm
      Note that while some personal pronouns are flexible with gender (most notably 私 and occasionally 僕, both also dependent on age), あたし is pretty strictly feminine!

      Edit: Please pardon if there are any miswritten kanji on that transcript.  The two important things, "お兄ちゃん" and "あたし", are 100% correct, guaranteed!  

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      If I read another childish comment that the pronouns "she/her" must be put into Alluka's article because the "she's a girl and she's so cute and precious oh my god look at her and Killua together" reason, I am changing the gender back to male.


      • ahem*. You transphobic hicks, all of you!! Alluka has to right to identify as female, now change her pronouns so she can identify how she wants!! *waaaaahhhh*
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    • Viviburn wrote:
      DinoTaur wrote:
      Viviburn wrote:

      I *have* read all of the past comments, and some were right to call people out on being transphobic.


      Pigzillion wrote:
      A Lot of people throw the "killua called her a girl so Alluka must be a girl" argument in there, but I'm pretty sure that's just Killua being nice. After all, Alluka clearly looks and acts like a girl and may very well be a female in nature and psyche, but that doesn't change the fact that biologically Alluka would still be male,  
      That is the DEFINITION of transphobia, equating gender to sex.  I didn't want to drag old comments into this, but if you're willing to pull out hurtful things someone on our side of the arguement said a few months ago, then I can call out your old stuff, too.  The person who said 'kill yourself' was wrong, I'm not condoning their actions, and I know what it's like to be suicidal, but they haven't been in on this conversation for months.  Hunterbowl was talking about how calm and rational recent comments have been, because I'm sure they know how quickly dialogues like this can degrade to personal attacks and petty insults.

      Could you state an example where calling people transphobic was justified? Transphobia is defined as "intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people" (Oxford Dictionary). Did anyone state that they didn't want Alluka to be female because they had negative feelings towards transsexuality?
      Do you disagree that the comment I quoted was transphobic, a quote that equivilates to, 'gender identity doesn't matter, biological sex does'?   Did I say the person who said it hates trans folk?  No, I didn't.  However, what they said was transphobic, whether it was intentional or not.  People have the right to point this out and help others understand why it's not right.  Being called out for saying stuff like this...why is that being equated to the severity of the original comment?

      You know, I was literally just asking for examples. I had every intention of agreeing with you if you could provide the appropriate examples. However, what you have just called as transphobic is actually being objective, if you really want, apathetic, but definitely not hate. I know, the opposite of love is indifference/apathy, but as a wiki, we cannot afford to "love". If something was said like, "Alluka can't be transsexual because it would be weird," that would be closer to transphobic. And no, we are not equating gender with sex, we just choose to use sex as our representative. Now, maybe we could change the infobox from saying gender to sex so it would be more accurate in your eyes. I don't know if it can be done, I'm not an admin here, and it would take A LOT of work.

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    • DinoTaur wrote:

      You know, I was literally just asking for examples. I had every intention of agreeing with you if you could provide the appropriate examples. However, what you have just called as transphobic is actually being objective, if you really want, apathetic, but definitely not hate. I know, the opposite of love is indifference/apathy, but as a wiki, we cannot afford to "love". If something was said like, "Alluka can't be transsexual because it would be weird," that would be closer to transphobic. And no, we are not equating gender with sex, we just choose to use sex as our representative. Now, maybe we could change the infobox from saying gender to sex so it would be more accurate in your eyes. I don't know if it can be done, I'm not an admin here, and it would take A LOT of work.

      OK, that's the problem right here!  "we just choose to use sex as our representative."

      Do you see what's wrong here? On a discussion about gender, sex shouldn't be used as evidence one way or another unless you're willing to go into evidence that the character is cis, trans, non-binary, etc.  That's being cisnormative, and while usually it's not a conscious decision or an actively hateful comment, it's still transphobic. Am I calling the person who said it transphobic? Probably not, unless they'll repeatably make these comments even after being called out on it. I'm saying the comments themselves are transphobic. It's still an aversion to labelling someone as anything but cis. To default to matching gender and sex is transphobic. To default to matching gender and sex harms people who aren't safe or comfortable with how other people identify them. It makes people feel broken for years because 'gender is sex' is all they ever knew growing up. This isn't a personal attack!! These are things that honestly the majority of people haven't heard or don't understand. That's why I'm trying to explain it! This is what we've had problems with.

      BUT this is far from the point I'm currently trying to make! I keep bringing up new evidence, but all anyone wants to talk about are things that happened months ago. Instead of focusing on some old, childish, harmful, and occasionally off-kilter comments, we should discuss the actual topic and maybe even work together to examine the Japanese text of the manga, such as the passage I last posted. Is that reasonable?
      Cheers.

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    • Viviburn wrote:
      DinoTaur wrote:

      You know, I was literally just asking for examples. I had every intention of agreeing with you if you could provide the appropriate examples. However, what you have just called as transphobic is actually being objective, if you really want, apathetic, but definitely not hate. I know, the opposite of love is indifference/apathy, but as a wiki, we cannot afford to "love". If something was said like, "Alluka can't be transsexual because it would be weird," that would be closer to transphobic. And no, we are not equating gender with sex, we just choose to use sex as our representative. Now, maybe we could change the infobox from saying gender to sex so it would be more accurate in your eyes. I don't know if it can be done, I'm not an admin here, and it would take A LOT of work.

      OK, that's the problem right here!  "we just choose to use sex as our representative."

      Do you see what's wrong here? On a discussion about gender, sex shouldn't be used as evidence one way or another unless you're willing to go into evidence that the character is cis, trans, non-binary, etc.  That's being cisnormative, and while usually it's not a conscious decision or an actively hateful comment, it's still transphobic. Am I calling the person who said it transphobic? Probably not, unless they'll repeatably make these comments even after being called out on it. I'm saying the comments themselves are transphobic. It's still an aversion to labelling someone as anything but cis. To default to matching gender and sex is transphobic. To default to matching gender and sex harms people who aren't safe or comfortable with how other people identify them. It makes people feel broken for years because 'gender is sex' is all they ever knew growing up. This isn't a personal attack!! These are things that honestly the majority of people haven't heard or don't understand. That's why I'm trying to explain it! This is what we've had problems with.

      BUT this is far from the point I'm currently trying to make! I keep bringing up new evidence, but all anyone wants to talk about are things that happened months ago. Instead of focusing on some old, childish, harmful, and occasionally off-kilter comments, we should discuss the actual topic and maybe even work together to examine the Japanese text of the manga, such as the passage I last posted. Is that reasonable?
      Cheers.

      I mean, we could just change all of the info boxes on every character from "gender" to "sex". That way there's no misinterpritation and we're just giving official confirmations. Then again, I guess that'd still bring the issue of a fictional, not real, non existant person having their feelings broken because they're not receiving the proper pronouns. Even though they're not real, and there is nothing completely solid and indisputable to prove that they even are transgender. So I guess that idea doesn't work. Even though that person doesn't exist. And is fictional...

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    • Actually, why can't we just keep the pronouns masculine and edit the gender ambiguity section? Something like, "While there is substantial evidence to suggest that Alluka may be physiologically female, as the only official confirmation is that Alluka is biologically male, this article will refer to Alluka using masculine pronouns". I mean, even if you don't agree with this suggestion, please try to come up with someway to improve the gender ambiguity section of Alluka's article, as it could probably do with a few tweaks.

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    • Pigzillion wrote:

      I mean, we could just change all of the info boxes on every character from "gender" to "sex". That way there's no misinterpritation and we're just giving official confirmations. Then again, I guess that'd still bring the issue of a fictional, not real, non existant person having their feelings broken because they're not receiving the proper pronouns. Even though they're not real, and there is nothing completely solid and indisputable to prove that they even are transgender. So I guess that idea doesn't work. Even though that person doesn't exist. And is fictional...

      OK, I think you're still missing the point.  This thread, the one we're talking on right now, is on speculation, discussion, and evidence on Alluka's GENDER, not sex.  'Feelings broken,' is that what you think misgendering is?  I'm honestly asking, because it's a complicated issue that's hard to understand if it doesn't directly affect you.  Even if Alluka's a fictional character in a fictional setting, these ideologies that you're asserting through fiction have real-world consequences. 

      If I had to pick just one reason to defend my position, it would be that Alluka uses female pronouns to refer to herself, so it follows that we should use female pronouns to refer to her.  Simple as that.

      Anyways, I'm fine with no pronouns over male pronouns.  It seems like you're the only one objecting to this change.

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      Actually, why can't we just keep the pronouns masculine and edit the gender ambiguity section? Something like, "While there is substantial evidence to suggest that Alluka may be physiologically female, as the only official confirmation is that Alluka is biologically male, this article will refer to Alluka using masculine pronouns". I mean, even if you don't agree with this suggestion, please try to come up with someway to improve the gender ambiguity section of Alluka's article, as it could probably do with a few tweaks.

      There's no such thing as 'physiologically female,' though.  If she ID's as female, she's female, no matter what.  The gender ambiguity section doesn't need to change.  I mean, we could list every time Alluka is referred to as a boy and a girl and by whom, but the whole 'Killua says Alluka's a girl while the rest of family says Alluka's a boy' is pretty good.

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    • Viviburn, I believe that if you want to get your point across you should answer this question: why should we refer to Alluka by gender as opposed to sex? We can give you a more coherent, relevant answer if you do such.

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    • DinoTaur wrote:
      Viviburn, I believe that if you want to get your point across you should answer this question: why should we refer to Alluka by gender as opposed to sex? We can give you a more coherent, relevant answer if you do such.

      I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand the question.  Are you asking why we're discussing gender at all?  Or are you asking what started this?  Because prior to the changes, Alluka was listed as Gender: Male, and male pronouns were used to refer to Alluka.  That has been thankfully removed now though.

      Why is gender important, indeed?  When someone ID's as a gender, it tells us about them.  It tells us how the view themselves and how they need other people to view them.  Why is this relevant in fiction?  Because it all ties into real life.  No one argues that Gon is male, because he uses masculine pronouns, presents as male, and refers to himself as a son.  We actually haven't seen his sex displayed, because he's 12 and that's unthinkable/disgusting and it's information we don't need.  We haven't even seen Kurapika so much as shirtless, even in side materials such as a picture of the gang at the beach, and while the 1999 anime made some creepy comments about his ambiguity, nearly everyone refers to him as male.

      You might want to bring up databook information, but what about all of the other characters beyond that?  Amane is clearly a girl - that's her gender.  We don't know about her sex (she's most likely cis, but we have no hard evidence of that), and we don't have to, because knowing someone's gender is enough.  That's what's more important to understanding their character.  Thus, we list her as female and use feminine pronouns.

      It's not JUST Alluka who's referred to by their gender and not their sex - we do it on all characters, but it doesn't get called to attention unless their sex doesn't match their gender. 

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    • Let me put it this way:

      Assume these are facts:

      Alluka's sex is male

      Alluka's gender is female

      Why should gender take precedence over sex (female gets precedence over male)?

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    • DinoTaur wrote:
      Let me put it this way:

      Assume these are facts:

      Alluka's sex is male

      Alluka's gender is female

      Why should gender take precedence over sex (female gets precedence over male)?

      I'm really not trying to offend you, but did you read my full message?  About why gender is important?  And in what cases are you talking about gender taking precedence over sex?  If it's pronouns, gender absolutely takes precedence.  If it's understanding and portraying the character, gender still takes precedence, with the relationship between their gender and sex also being important.  If it's about if they can physically get pregnant or not, sex takes precedence.  If it's about physically describing a sexual act, sex takes precedence.  These are my views on the subject.  Please feel free to correct me, especially on any 'sexual' stuff, for that is not my forté.

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    • Viviburn wrote:
      Why is gender important, indeed?  When someone ID's as a gender, it tells us about them.  It tells us how the view themselves and how they need other people to view them.  Why is this relevant in fiction?  Because it all ties into real life.  No one argues that Gon is male, because he uses masculine pronouns, presents as male, and refers to himself as a son.  We actually haven't seen his sex displayed, because he's 12 and that's unthinkable/disgusting and it's information we don't need.  We haven't even seen Kurapika so much as shirtless, even in side materials such as a picture of the gang at the beach, and while the 1999 anime made some creepy comments about his ambiguity, nearly everyone refers to him as male.

      Well, perhaps you haven't been paying attention in the manga. Togashi released a volume cover that shows Kurapika shirtless, because back then people often lost their shit arguing whether Kurapika is male or female. Voilà! Problem solved.

      I doubt Togashi will release another volume cover that features Alluka.

      Amane is clearly a girl - that's her gender.  We don't know about her sex (she's most likely cis, but we have no hard evidence of that), and we don't have to, because knowing someone's gender is enough.

      This is exactly how arguments like this begin in the wiki. "Probably", "most likely", "this character acts like this so he/she must be like this". We have no evidence about that, but people keep on blathering and blathering about the subject. Some fans actually come here and insist that Hisoka is a pedophile, because "he likes Gon and Killua". Hisoka is more than just interested in them because "he is a pedophile". Togashi showed us more about Hisoka's character and it did not even incline towards pedophilia.

      Bottom line is: stop assuming characters to be like this and then come to the wiki and argue about it. For all I know, the next argument we'll be having is whether Amane is cis or lesbian for Canary.

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      Viviburn wrote:
      Why is gender important, indeed?  When someone ID's as a gender, it tells us about them.  It tells us how the view themselves and how they need other people to view them.  Why is this relevant in fiction?  Because it all ties into real life.  No one argues that Gon is male, because he uses masculine pronouns, presents as male, and refers to himself as a son.  We actually haven't seen his sex displayed, because he's 12 and that's unthinkable/disgusting and it's information we don't need.  We haven't even seen Kurapika so much as shirtless, even in side materials such as a picture of the gang at the beach, and while the 1999 anime made some creepy comments about his ambiguity, nearly everyone refers to him as male.
      Well, perhaps you haven't been paying attention in the manga. Togashi released a volume cover that shows Kurapika shirtless, because back then people often lost their shit arguing whether Kurapika is male or female. Voilà! Problem solved.

      I doubt Togashi will release another volume cover that features Alluka.


      Amane is clearly a girl - that's her gender.  We don't know about her sex (she's most likely cis, but we have no hard evidence of that), and we don't have to, because knowing someone's gender is enough.
      This is exactly how arguments like this begin in the wiki. "Probably", "most likely", "this character acts like this so he/she must be like this". We have no evidence about that, but people keep on blathering and blathering about the subject. Some fans actually come here and insist that Hisoka is a pedophile, because "he likes Gon and Killua". Hisoka is more than just interested in them because "he is a pedophile". Togashi showed us more about Hisoka's character and it did not even incline towards pedophilia.

      Bottom line is: stop assuming characters to be like this and then come to the wiki and argue about it. For all I know, the next argument we'll be having is whether Amane is cis or lesbian for Canary.

      I'm not here to argue, I'm here to discuss, and if I can educate people about real-world problems in the process, that would make me really happy.

      If you know more about Kurapika than me, that's fine, but I've clearly been paying attention to the manga, or else I wouldn't be transcribing raws.  Anyways, my point was that even before we saw him shirtless, we knew Kurapika was a guy.

      And my point with Amane was that we don't need to know her sex to know that she's a girl and subsequently list her as gender: female and use feminine pronouns.  I don't care if she's cis or trans!

      There's assumptions and there's logical conclusions based on several, repeated, and clear information.  The "Alluka is a girl!" scene is one of them, as is Kurt's "big brother will protect you!" scene.

      Like I said, I'm absolutely fine with how Alluka's page is set up right now and I'm not complaining.  Is it ok to still talk about Alluka's gender here and investigate some things?  Because that's all we're doing at this point.

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    • Viviburn wrote:
      - Darkchylde wrote:
      Viviburn wrote:
      Why is gender important, indeed?  When someone ID's as a gender, it tells us about them.  It tells us how the view themselves and how they need other people to view them.  Why is this relevant in fiction?  Because it all ties into real life.  No one argues that Gon is male, because he uses masculine pronouns, presents as male, and refers to himself as a son.  We actually haven't seen his sex displayed, because he's 12 and that's unthinkable/disgusting and it's information we don't need.  We haven't even seen Kurapika so much as shirtless, even in side materials such as a picture of the gang at the beach, and while the 1999 anime made some creepy comments about his ambiguity, nearly everyone refers to him as male.
      Well, perhaps you haven't been paying attention in the manga. Togashi released a volume cover that shows Kurapika shirtless, because back then people often lost their shit arguing whether Kurapika is male or female. Voilà! Problem solved.

      I doubt Togashi will release another volume cover that features Alluka.


      Amane is clearly a girl - that's her gender.  We don't know about her sex (she's most likely cis, but we have no hard evidence of that), and we don't have to, because knowing someone's gender is enough.
      This is exactly how arguments like this begin in the wiki. "Probably", "most likely", "this character acts like this so he/she must be like this". We have no evidence about that, but people keep on blathering and blathering about the subject. Some fans actually come here and insist that Hisoka is a pedophile, because "he likes Gon and Killua". Hisoka is more than just interested in them because "he is a pedophile". Togashi showed us more about Hisoka's character and it did not even incline towards pedophilia.

      Bottom line is: stop assuming characters to be like this and then come to the wiki and argue about it. For all I know, the next argument we'll be having is whether Amane is cis or lesbian for Canary.

      I'm not here to argue, I'm here to discuss, and if I can educate people about real-world problems in the process, that would make me really happy.

      If you know more about Kurapika than me, that's fine, but I've clearly been paying attention to the manga, or else I wouldn't be transcribing raws.  Anyways, my point was that even before we saw him shirtless, we knew Kurapika was a guy.

      And my point with Amane was that we don't need to know her sex to know that she's a girl and subsequently list her as gender: female and use feminine pronouns.  I don't care if she's cis or trans!

      There's assumptions and there's logical conclusions based on several, repeated, and clear information.  The "Alluka is a girl!" scene is one of them, as is Kurt's "big brother will protect you!" scene.

      Like I said, I'm absolutely fine with how Alluka's page is set up right now and I'm not complaining.  Is it ok to still talk about Alluka's gender here and investigate some things?  Because that's all we're doing at this point.

      Yes, you are here to argue. In fact, I'm not even sure wheather you care more about the actual topic itself, or just arguing about it.

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      Yes, you are here to argue. In fact, I'm not even sure wheather you care more about the actual topic itself, or just arguing about it.

      Thank you for letting me know my own, true intentions.  You're right, I'm only here to rile everyone up and get angry.  I don't care at all about the topic and don't even care about HunterxHunter.  I simply LOVE arguing.

      Since some people can't understand sarcasm (not by their own fault), I'm going to point out that I was being sarcastic.

      Arguing would be something like, "Why don't the mods change it to female? They're huge dicks!"  I'm bringing up factual evidence to support my claim all the while stating OVER AND OVER that I'm fine with how the wiki is now and am here to defend my standpoint, not force it down your throats.

      This is a thread about Alluka's gender.  People are here to talk about gender.  It's right there as the title. So it shouldn't be a surprise that some people here deeply care about this subject.

      It just occurred to me that you might be trying to rile me up into saying something regrettable so you'll have something incorrect to point out or give the mods an excuse to change Alluka's page back.  If that's the case, let me just say that I've dealt with FAR worse, actually mean-spirited people and was able to keep a level head. So while I won't ask you to stop responding to this thread or even stop responding in an off-topic manner, I'll ask that you don't purposefully try to make people upset or egg them on so you can 'win'. People are able to make counterpoints without stooping to personal attacks.

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    • Viviburn wrote:
       
      Thank you for letting me know my own, true intentions.  You're right, I'm only here to rile everyone up and get angry.  I don't care at all about the topic and don't even care about HunterxHunter.  I simply LOVE arguing.

      That first paragraph is literally you inciting an argument. And now, that's not me trying to get you to say something that'll let darkchylde change Alluka's gender back. An argument is "an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one.", which is pretty much this entire thread in a nutshell.

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    • It takes two to tango!

      = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 


      Hello everyone!  I'd just like to start talking about Alluka's gender and the implications behind the Zoldyck's treatment of her as 'Nanika.'  While I personally believe Alluka is a trans girl, I'm fine with her wiki page as of now.  If anyone has any information on this topic, feel free to post it!  I'll start:

       Viviburn wrote:
      Ok, you wanted Japanese text...here it is! お兄ちゃん..... あたしジャマ...? いない方が家族仲良くできる?The page this is said can be found here: http://www.imagebam.com/image/545187162083006It roughly translates to "Brother....am I a hindrance? If I wasn't here, would the family get along?" Two things to note: first, we know it's Alluka since she says 'brother' instead of 'Killua'. Second, Alluka uses あたし to address herself, which is a personal pronoun used by girls and young women. Here are some links that will define it:
      http://www.wordsense.eu/%E3%81%82%E3%81%9F%E3%81%97/

      http://japanese.about.com/od/Grammar/a/Personal-Pronouns.htm
      Note that while some personal pronouns are flexible with gender (most notably 私 and occasionally 僕, both also dependent on age), あたし is pretty strictly feminine!

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    • Viviburn wrote:
      It takes two to tango!

      = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 


      Hello everyone!  I'd just like to start talking about Alluka's gender and the implications behind the Zoldyck's treatment of her as 'Nanika.'  While I personally believe Alluka is a trans girl, I'm fine with her wiki page as of now.  If anyone has any information on this topic, feel free to post it!  I'll start:


       Viviburn wrote:
      Ok, you wanted Japanese text...here it is! お兄ちゃん..... あたしジャマ...? いない方が家族仲良くできる?The page this is said can be found here: http://www.imagebam.com/image/545187162083006It roughly translates to "Brother....am I a hindrance? If I wasn't here, would the family get along?" Two things to note: first, we know it's Alluka since she says 'brother' instead of 'Killua'. Second, Alluka uses あたし to address herself, which is a personal pronoun used by girls and young women. Here are some links that will define it:
      http://www.wordsense.eu/%E3%81%82%E3%81%9F%E3%81%97/http://japanese.about.com/od/Grammar/a/Personal-Pronouns.htm


      Note that while some personal pronouns are flexible with gender (most notably 私 and occasionally 僕, both also dependent on age), あたし is pretty strictly feminine!

      Not gonna lie. That made me giggle.

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    • The reason I asked why you valued gender over sex is because there is the possibility that the wiki may use sex in the article even if Togashi says "Alluka is mentally a female". Again, I'm not an admin or very experienced here so don't take my word for absolute fact. 

      As for gender, I actually more or less agree with you that Alluka may be female psychologically, therefore trans. But I do have one alternate theory: Alluka is a boy and Kikyo and possibly the butlers have basically indoctrinated Alluka to believe that he is a girl and has taught him to use atashi. Being locked away from modern society for most of his life, Alluka would probably see this as normal and refer to himself femininely. 

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    • "Some time afterwards, Yasuha, another female servant of the Zoldyck family, gave Alluka a piggyback ride at his request, thus activating wish-granting mode. " 

      You missed one.

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    • y'all who do u trust killua or the databook

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    • the data book

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      the data book

      Thanks, Alex.

      http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s449/D-Chylde/pig_zps0unmoy2v.gif

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    • No problem bro.

      No problem bro
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    • So you gonna change the names to the Databook's spelling or what then.

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    • We have the Databook spellings in the infoboxes, which you would know if you actually bothered to look at them.

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    • Tumblr nzb84sukQn1r5194qo2 540
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    • Funny, because those databook spellings (rather just Zoldyck anyway) was ignored if not retconned by Togashi with chapter 344.

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    • Coolkid420 wrote:
      Alluka is a trans girl. The only people who even call her a boy are the villians in the show. Stop making up excuses to try and erase the fact that alluka is a girl. Stop with the cissexism and transphobia. Alluka says that she is a girl, so you need to leave it at that. Stop trying to figure out what a little girls genetalia is, its weird. Respect the fact that trans people have an inkling of representation. 

      darn right SHE is!!!!!!!!!!!!! like jfc people she identifies as female get over it


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    • Guys, can you stop with the gifs? It's not helping.

      The names in the databooks are not counted because they are not used anywhere else. The fact that some parts of it have been altered does not make it useless and forbid Togashi from speaking about his own creation ever after.

      That aside, Lil-komugi, instead of vandalizing other articles - which, regardless of the validity of what you are advocating for, merely makes you a troll and get you banned - bother to read what's written on the page you are talking about and get a reference. Nanika is clearly female, it's easy to find in almost all chapters, but can you say the same about Alluka? The comment you ar equoting has some serious flaws - Killua called Alluka his brother, and he often spoke about his sister's powers, meaning Nanika.

      We've tried to find definite evidence. Looking back at the brunt of material we have, I too have come to believe Alluka is a boy who identifies himself as female, precisely as it's stated on the page of the character in question. The difficulty is whether we can call what we have incontrovertible. Sure, more eyes are always useful. So... what exactly is your complaint? You are not making any suggestions, and you're not helping yourself or your cause.

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    • Look, if we want to solve this matter once and for all - at least, until new chapters are released - we got to swm out of all of this confusion. As it's clear, there is a lot of misinformation. What I suggest is that we write down every single instance in which Alluka is called a boy or his sex and gender can be assumed to be the same (example, which may not be correct: Killua acknowledges Alluka and Nanika as two different people; he states Alluka has no powers, it's Nanika who is able to grant wishes; he refers to Alluka as female when he talks about Nanika's powers; hence, he is actually saying Nanika is female, not Alluka) in one column and all the hints of him being a trans girl on the other. I mean it literally: every single instance. Alluka actually appears for roughly twenty chapters, it should be easy to do. We will also need a reliable translation, and probably consider the English version, too, for the pronouns, although we should also specify the English translation cannot be used as definite proof . I trust we can be unbiased in the selection of the material, since it's not left up to a single person.

      Then, when everything has been clearly written down, we vote. It's often done on other wikis. Not merely cast our votes anonymously: voters must demonstrate to have read and understood all references. They will vote through a comment detailing their choice. Of course, blatantly transphobic votes and votes based on shallow, biased or flawed reasonings will be ignored. There will be three options:

      1. Alluka's gender is male

      2. Alluka's gender is female

      3. The material does not provide concrete proof in any direction

      An example of what I mean can be found here. I've seen a similar thing done - rather frequently - on the One Piece Wiki, too. Assuming the second option wins, we will have a second poll ready:

      1. The article should use masculine pronouns.

      2. The article should use feminine pronouns.

      3. The article should use genderless pronouns (insufficient evidence or neutrality)

      Confirmed contributors will be able to vote for a certain period - let's say one week from the moment the admin in charge declares all references have been put in the list. I think this will ensure a fair verdict.

      Just one last thing: some of us (probably me above anyone else) have been pretty dense and stubborn, but refrain from calling people transphobic before hearing them out first. You are accusing them of rejecting a part of humanity, and that's heavy. They may be just obstinate or misinformed, or on the contrary, you may not be as right (terrible choice of words, but it's 3 a.m.) as you think, and antagonizing them will not help in any way.

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    • Martialmaniac wrote:  I too have come to believe Alluka is a boy who identifies himself as female, precisely as it's stated on the page of the character in question

      If you think she identifies as female, why are you using the male pronouns in this comment?  I'm trying to stay calm and rational, but people repeatably make the same mistakes even after being corrected.  If someone calls you transphobic, more often than not it's because you're saying something that either dismisses or outright denies that someone's identity is valid.  You might not be trying to do this, but when it keeps getting pointed out and nothing changes, it comes off as if you just do not care.

      In the context of this comment, Alluka identifies as female, so she IS female.  You're admitting that she id's female, but that it doesn't matter to you because she was assigned male at birth.  Do you see the problem here?  You're acknowledging someone else's identification and disregarding it in the same breath!  This is what we're trying to combat, and some have to do it every day.

      Anyways, time for the usual disclaimer: I am ok with Alluka's page as it is now with no pronouns instead of male pronouns (of course I would love to see female pronouns, but after countless exchanges, it seems like that won't happen any time soon).  I'm simply here to discuss the important topic of gender identity and its presence in fictional media, which has a major connection to reality.

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    • Viviburn wrote:
      Martialmaniac wrote:  I too have come to believe Alluka is a boy who identifies himself as female, precisely as it's stated on the page of the character in question
      If you think she identifies as female, why are you using the male pronouns in this comment?  I'm trying to stay calm and rational, but people repeatably make the same mistakes even after being corrected.  If someone calls you transphobic, more often than not it's because you're saying something that either dismisses or outright denies that someone's identity is valid.  You might not be trying to do this, but when it keeps getting pointed out and nothing changes, it comes off as if you just do not care.

      In the context of this comment, Alluka identifies as female, so she IS female.  You're admitting that she id's female, but that it doesn't matter to you because she was assigned male at birth.  Do you see the problem here?  You're acknowledging someone else's identification and disregarding it in the same breath!  This is what we're trying to combat, and some have to do it every day.

      Anyways, time for the usual disclaimer: I am ok with Alluka's page as it is now with no pronouns instead of male pronouns (of course I would love to see female pronouns, but after countless exchanges, it seems like that won't happen any time soon).  I'm simply here to discuss the important topic of gender identity and its presence in fictional media, which has a major connection to reality.


      I like how you didn't comment on anything else martial said other than the quote which triggered you.

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    • Pigzillion wrote: I like how you didn't comment on anything else martial said other than the quote which triggered you.

      It's because I realize I have very little say in any matters around here.  I have to use IRREFUTABLE dialogue so as not to be accused it being subjective rather than objective.  Anyways, I thought I suggested a list a while ago.  I even provided one of the most compelling (IN MY OPINION) bits of information on why Alluka is a girl and even reposted it at a later time.  Other than that, I was thinking that the poll will turned out a little biased, but didn't want to say anything directly about it because my feelings on polling mean very little and it's not like I can pull up evidence to support my hunch.  They'll poll whether I comment on it or not.

      In the case that this isn't sarcasm and you actually 'like' how I commented, I'll say thanks!  I do hate getting long-winded sometimes, so focusing on what I believe is important is paramount.  I know this comment's probably sarcastic, but you never really know!

      As Nina Simone sang, "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good; oh Lord please don't let me be misunderstood!"

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    • Okay, I will give pieces of evidence for both sides here:

      Alluka is a male:

      • Shounen Jump refers to Alluka as a Zoldyck brother here.

      Alluka is a female:

      • Killua explicity says "Alluka is a girl" here, and refers to Alluka as his little sister to most others.
      • Alluka uses atashi for self-reference, which is strictly feminine.
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    • Happy 1 year anniversary to this thread! It's grown so much... It brings a tear to my eye.

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    • Happy anniversary indeed! Let us continue arguing about this matter until next year, and the next! I have never been so proud of such a deep, intelligent argument, attested to the use of gifs and memes. I thank everyone who has been part of this thread.

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    • Yeah... Happy anniversary to a thread that no matter how much reason or logic, arguments, fact/details, etc. goes into this thread, it's either 1 side concedes to the other ideology, no compromise will be accepted.

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    • My emotions for this feat can probably be summed up by looking at Gon's face in my profile picture. I'm just so happy!!

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    • Yes, perhaps this matter will be settled in 5 years when Togashi finally releases a new chapter.

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    • He'll probably die of obesity before then, causing this thread to go on for all eternity.

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    • Viviburn wrote:
      Martialmaniac wrote:  I too have come to believe Alluka is a boy who identifies himself as female, precisely as it's stated on the page of the character in question
      If you think she identifies as female, why are you using the male pronouns in this comment?  I'm trying to stay calm and rational, but people repeatably make the same mistakes even after being corrected.  If someone calls you transphobic, more often than not it's because you're saying something that either dismisses or outright denies that someone's identity is valid.  You might not be trying to do this, but when it keeps getting pointed out and nothing changes, it comes off as if you just do not care.

      In the context of this comment, Alluka identifies as female, so she IS female.  You're admitting that she id's female, but that it doesn't matter to you because she was assigned male at birth.  Do you see the problem here?  You're acknowledging someone else's identification and disregarding it in the same breath!  This is what we're trying to combat, and some have to do it every day.

      Anyways, time for the usual disclaimer: I am ok with Alluka's page as it is now with no pronouns instead of male pronouns (of course I would love to see female pronouns, but after countless exchanges, it seems like that won't happen any time soon).  I'm simply here to discuss the important topic of gender identity and its presence in fictional media, which has a major connection to reality.

      Would you stop jumping to conclusions? You are being pretty irritating in your quest to prove anyone else wrong. Doesn't the phrase "Alluka is a boy who identify herself as female" sound grammatically incorrect in your head? Maybe I wasn't trying to reject what I said I had accepted, simply to use a pronoun that seemed better suited to the contest. Since this is not Alluka's article, and I'm not insulting the character - a fictional character - I think it should be ok if I use the pronoun that expresses more clearly what I mean. Simply, since I said "boy" before, "himself" sounded better, due to "as female" coming afterwards. Had Alluka been the subject of the next sentence, I would have said "she", but this is mere formalism.

      I didn't think it could be perceived in such an offensive way, especially since I had just said I consider Alluka female. Do you need to act all high and mighty to the point you have to pick on the slightest mistake despite everything else I said?

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    • Martialmaniac wrote:

      Would you stop jumping to conclusions? You are being pretty irritating in your quest to prove anyone else wrong. Doesn't the phrase "Alluka is a boy who identify herself as female" sound grammatically incorrect in your head? Maybe I wasn't trying to reject what I said I had accepted, simply to use a pronoun that seemed better suited to the contest. Since this is not Alluka's article, and I'm not insulting the character - a fictional character - I think it should be ok if I use the pronoun that expresses more clearly what I mean. Simply, since I said "boy" before, "himself" sounded better, due to "as female" coming afterwards. Had Alluka been the subject of the next sentence, I would have said "she", but this is mere formalism.

      I didn't think it could be perceived in such an offensive way, especially since I had just said I consider Alluka female. Do you need to act all high and mighty to the point you have to pick on the slightest mistake despite everything else I said?

      Sorry, I'm not trying to instigate an argument.  As I've already responded to Pigzillion who had the same complaint, I won't repeat myself.  If it comes off as if I'm trying to act high and mighty, I apologize, but that isn't what I'm doing!  It's pretty clear that I care immensely about this topic.  When I see comments like those, I don't immediately jump up and say "yes!! they made a mistake!!" I have to take a minute to once again confront the fact that no matter how hard we try, it's not going to change what has been embedded in our culture overnight.  We want people to understand so maybe eventually all identities are perceived as 'valid' and we don't have to constantly justify them.  In a thread about gender, where people have already displayed harmful thoughts, mistakes will sometimes come off as intentional because this stuff has been explained so many times.  In a thread about gender, we should feel safe enough to call out wrong pronouns.

      I apologize if my comments are too lengthy; I just want my words to be understood.

      Both Alluka and Nanika are fascinating characters, and I'm thankful to be able to discuss something important within a story I love.

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    • Martialmaniac wrote:
      Viviburn wrote:
      Martialmaniac wrote:  I too have come to believe Alluka is a boy who identifies himself as female, precisely as it's stated on the page of the character in question
      If you think she identifies as female, why are you using the male pronouns in this comment?  I'm trying to stay calm and rational, but people repeatably make the same mistakes even after being corrected.  If someone calls you transphobic, more often than not it's because you're saying something that either dismisses or outright denies that someone's identity is valid.  You might not be trying to do this, but when it keeps getting pointed out and nothing changes, it comes off as if you just do not care.

      In the context of this comment, Alluka identifies as female, so she IS female.  You're admitting that she id's female, but that it doesn't matter to you because she was assigned male at birth.  Do you see the problem here?  You're acknowledging someone else's identification and disregarding it in the same breath!  This is what we're trying to combat, and some have to do it every day.

      Anyways, time for the usual disclaimer: I am ok with Alluka's page as it is now with no pronouns instead of male pronouns (of course I would love to see female pronouns, but after countless exchanges, it seems like that won't happen any time soon).  I'm simply here to discuss the important topic of gender identity and its presence in fictional media, which has a major connection to reality.

      Would you stop jumping to conclusions? You are being pretty irritating in your quest to prove anyone else wrong. Doesn't the phrase "Alluka is a boy who identify herself as female" sound grammatically incorrect in your head? Maybe I wasn't trying to reject what I said I had accepted, simply to use a pronoun that seemed better suited to the contest. Since this is not Alluka's article, and I'm not insulting the character - a fictional character - I think it should be ok if I use the pronoun that expresses more clearly what I mean. Simply, since I said "boy" before, "himself" sounded better, due to "as female" coming afterwards. Had Alluka been the subject of the next sentence, I would have said "she", but this is mere formalism.

      I didn't think it could be perceived in such an offensive way, especially since I had just said I consider Alluka female. Do you need to act all high and mighty to the point you have to pick on the slightest mistake despite everything else I said?


      Oh shit, you actually got martial mad. Good going buddy. That's the first time I've seen this happen

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    • @Vivi: Out of curiosity, as you a female who identifies as a man, or man who identifies as female? Again, I'm just curious, so don't feel the need to answer if you don't want to.

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    • Sorry, I'm extremely uncomfortable with talking about my gender, for multiple reasons.  Anyways, the terms 'trans male' and 'trans female' are shorter and more accurate.  Don't shy away from using "trans".  DFAB trans man and DMAB trans woman is what I'm pretty sure you're referring to, but correct me if I'm wrong.

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    • I'm still interested in the vote. It seems the most balanced way in terms of satisfying the wiki's needs and satisfying the fans. 

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    • Maybe, instead of just listing evidence, we can number them out so people can provide a rebuttal without having to quote the comment and instead referring to it by number.  For example:

      PersonA: I believe this because (1), (2), and (3).

      PersonB: (1) is inaccurate/debunked because (4).

      PersonC: (2) is really vague; please consider rephrasing/providing evidence. (3) is a solid point though.

      That way, in the end, what we're left with is a list of evidence that isn't "subjective" (relative term, obviously.)  This could quickly devolve into complete chaos though, not to mention the potential organizational issues.  If there was a sticky feature, I would suggest using that to keep track of the list, but I don't think that's the case.

      Now that I've typed it out, it sort of looks like a dichotomous key, which might not be the simplest way to go about this.  I'll still leave the suggestion/fledgling idea out there.

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    • @Viviburn, I don't think too many people would vote, we really don't have that many contributors. That is exactly what I intended, only you explained it much better than me. Just to make the counting simpler, I thought to divide the votes in two colums (three with the "We can't infer it from the manga").

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    • Your right martial, we don't have many contributors. WHat we do have however are many, many, MANY people who would like to see Alluka refered to as female... If you get my point.

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    • As we have also discussed "in private", by voting through comments as Viviburn explained, we can ensure votes take into account the material. 

      On the other hand, Viviburn was right about one thing. It is pointless to make two polls, we should just make one with the three entires "Alluka is a boy (includes: male pronouns)", "Alluka is a (trans) girl (includes: female pronouns)" and "The hints are ambiguous (includes: genderless pronouns)".

      By the way, I am seriously thinking about making this poll, only for me it's still exam period, and the poll takes a lot more time than routine maintenance of the wiki, so I won't be much help at least until next Monday.

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    • No, what I mean is that taking a poll is completely redundant. If we use Viviburn's method we'll just be repeating the same points which we've already talked about here, and if we do it the normal way or the way you suggested earlier, there will be an avalanche of votes completely in favor of Alluka being referred to as a girl. Therefor, as soon as it gets to the point where we're about to take a poll, we should just up and change alluka's pronouns to female. It'll end up that way, regardless. If you want it that badly, ask for darkchylde's permission and tell me before hand. That way, we can both talk about our stances on the subject. However, know that the moment she agrees with you(in one scenario), that will be the moment where we refer to Alluka as female. And that is what I truely believe. 

      That's what I think, and now I bid you adieu.

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    • I side with Alex's point. If you look back to the previous years since Alluka was introduced, how many times did we encounter contributors who would randomly put female pronouns on the page? How many vandals did I have to block to make them stop making a separate page for Alluka but with female pronouns? Even in this thread, we've seen more people voting for Alluka as female. Is Alluka's gender a matter of whichever option in "majority" wins? Because the polls do not require people to have accounts in the Wikia, of course the polls would have a landslide win. The winner? Alluka would be voted as female. No questions asked. For now, I am quite contented to have no pronouns in the page.

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    • I'm glad you agree. To be honest, I'm not sure a single person has come to the wiki believing Alluka to be male other than the regular contributors.

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      No, what I mean is that taking a poll is completely redundant. If we use Viviburn's method we'll just be repeating the same points which we've already talked about here, and if we do it the normal way or the way you suggested earlier, there will be an avalanche of votes completely in favor of Alluka being referred to as a girl. Therefor, as soon as it gets to the point where we're about to take a poll, we should just up and change alluka's pronouns to female. It'll end up that way, regardless. If you want it that badly, ask for darkchylde's permission and tell me before hand. That way, we can both talk about our stances on the subject. However, know that the moment she agrees with you(in one scenario), that will be the moment where we refer to Alluka as female. And that is what I truely believe. 

      That's what I think, and now I bid you adieu.


      What the point of my method would be is an end result of a complete and coherent list of all evidence for both sides, instead of several scattered posts.  You could even copy-paste from those previous posts, so you wouldn't actually have to rewrite it.

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    • It doesn't matter! There are too many people who want Alluka too be called female and won't take no for an answer. There would only be one result, and that is a landslide victory in favor in Alluka. It's pointless, ineffective and it's not happening.

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    • That's really the whole point of polling - to see what the majority of people believe should be done.  All of the pollers would be presented with the same evidence from all sides and then vote based on whatever side they found to have the most solid proof.  If there was a point/counterpoint requirement in place, would that make it more balanced?

      Disclaimer: I'm fine with the gender-neutral page as it is now and these are merely my suggestions.

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    • Viviburn wrote:
      That's really the whole point of polling - to see what the majority of people believe should be done.  All of the pollers would be presented with the same evidence from all sides and then vote based on whatever side they found to have the most solid proof.  If there was a point/counterpoint requirement in place, would that make it more balanced?

      Disclaimer: I'm fine with the gender-neutral page as it is now and these are merely my suggestions.


      But they wouldn't vote based on what evidence is the most solid; they're voting based on personal biases.

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    • Exactly Dino. They wouldn't even bother looking at evidence on the other side, they vote for a female Alluka because of the tunnel vision people develop when faced with this sort of issue. They will only see a scenario where Alluka is female. A good example of this can be seen on screwattack's Superman vs Goku . Even though they attempted to look at the issue with a completely neutral standpoint and presented completely valid points, the Dragon Ball Z fan base saw red and only saw a scenario where Goku won. Viviburn, I'm afraid that while you may think that this is a good idea, you're regarding those in favor of Alluka being female too highly.

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    • Also Dino, while this may be off topic, are you able to understand what the Data Book actually says and translate it to english?

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      Also Dino, while this may be off topic, are you able to understand what the Data Book actually says and translate it to english?

      It depends on the part, really. 

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    • I was just wondering who it was that translated Allukas gender from the Data Book information. I thought that if it specifically said "gender" instead of "sex" we could end the topic.

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    • That's assuming that in Japanese they use gender and sex the same way they do in English. Which isn't really a good assumption to be making. 

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      I was just wondering who it was that translated Allukas gender from the Data Book information. I thought that if it specifically said "gender" instead of "sex" we could end the topic.

      If you can find a scan of it, I will give my opinion on it.

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    • I've searched for a good half an hour now and Gon through a lot of scans, but all of them only go up to the end of the palace invasion arc, before Alluka was introduced. In fact, I seem to remember there being a scan of Alluka's databook page here on hunterpedia, but it seems to have vanished. I guess I should ask darkchylde for help here.

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    • Alluka is only mentioned on this page of the databook, http://imgur.com/hG5djI5

      On the last sentence at the bottom, it says the identities of Killua's grandmother and younger brother Alluka haven't been revealed [to us].

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    • Indeed, if that's the sum of the evidence, then it points towards Alluka being a male. Of course, this debate is whether Alluka's psychological gender is male because most fans seem to accept that Alluka is biologically male.

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    • Also, this is off-topic, but where did the Zoldyck family tree showing Zeno as Maha's grandson come from?

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    • Chapter 264

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    • Consider he/she/it whatever makes you comfortable. It shouldn't detract from how touching Alluka's story is.

      There are clearly so many biases running wild in this thread. Some aren't comfortable with Alluka being a different gender than they thought, and others want a representation for their identity in the anime, and to teach others a lesson without knowing that they need one. Both are poorly thought out motivations for arguing it here.

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    • Aluka is male

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    • @Filtray: I agree completely.

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    • @Minato: ForGroove does not confirm.

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    • Alluka is a boy  3 Reasons Kikyo Has all sons Killua Says He is His Brother

      He Might just be a crossdresser
      Zoldyck sons - anime

      The five sons!!! with their mother

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    • It's simple...If Alluka is a girl,all is good. :')

      But if Alluka is a boy,he just has to request Killua to wish Alluka become a girl.

      Because I f**king want Alluka to be a girl. <3

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    • Sorry Killua is not like that

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    • It would be pretty fucked up if Killua made Alluka change his gender.

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    • I believe what they're saying is that if Alluka wants to transition, all she'd have to do is ask Killua to wish for it with Nanika.  Killua wouldn't force something like that.

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    • Anyways, she would be a girl either way - with or without physically transitioning. 

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    • Sorry But You Can Dream. Alluka is ****ing male   

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    • MiraZoldyck568 wrote:
      Alluka is a boy 

      3 Reasons Kikyo Has all sons Killua Says He is His Brother He Might just be a crossdresser


      Killua said "Alluka is a girl." He spends the rest of the series using female pronouns. But let's forget all that and use the one time when he didn't correct someone on the phone as the be all end all evidence.

      http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i336/MKM03/HxH%20Elc/HorribleSubsHunterXHunter-140480pmkv_snapshot_0649_20140730_135248.png

      Also, I don't know if you know anyone who is trans, but it's not uncommon for someone who knew the trans person before they came out as trans to slip up occasionally. It doesn't mean that you think of them as the wrong gender, it just means you were used to calling them a certain way before.

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    • Well, I would just say that probably Togashi postponed his manga work for too long until he couldn't remind what he had done on character genders lel. He was like: "Oh, did I mention that he was a guy? Opps, but I set him as a girl for now and I submitted the manga work to the publisher. Oh well just let it be." or "Why I did that? This is how I earn money lel. People will buy more manga books from me to argue about characters' genders hahaha! I wouldn't like to see the fans are arguing and judging their genders that I made. Isn't that a perfect plan for me to spend my time during postpone period hahaha? I'm just sit here and enjoy my time haha."

      If you guys keep having meaningless argue in here, you already become an entertaiment for Togashi for real lel. I also enjoy you guys' comments.....emmm, or more like conflict? o.o"

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    • I'm not sure he can speak english to be honest...

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    • Sango 珊瑚 wrote:
      Well, I would just say that probably Togashi postponed his manga work for too long until he couldn't remind what he had done on character genders lel. He was like: "Oh, did I mention that he was a guy? Opps, but I set him as a girl for now and I submitted the manga work to the publisher. Oh well just let it be." or "Why I did that? This is how I earn money lel. People will buy more manga books from me to argue about characters' genders hahaha! I wouldn't like to see the fans are arguing and judging their genders that I made. Isn't that a perfect plan for me to spend my time during postpone period hahaha? I'm just sit here and enjoy my time haha."

      If you guys keep having meaningless argue in here, you already become an entertaiment for Togashi for real lel. I also enjoy you guys' comments.....emmm, or more like conflict? o.o"

      I doubt Togashi did what he did to Alluka's gender just for the money and the "lels". Everything that happens in the manga has a reason, like how he foreshadows the next conflict by introducing it within the current one. He's just plain lazy to continue his manga, that's why.

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    • - Darkchylde wrote:
      Sango 珊瑚 wrote:
      Well, I would just say that probably Togashi postponed his manga work for too long until he couldn't remind what he had done on character genders lel. He was like: "Oh, did I mention that he was a guy? Opps, but I set him as a girl for now and I submitted the manga work to the publisher. Oh well just let it be." or "Why I did that? This is how I earn money lel. People will buy more manga books from me to argue about characters' genders hahaha! I wouldn't like to see the fans are arguing and judging their genders that I made. Isn't that a perfect plan for me to spend my time during postpone period hahaha? I'm just sit here and enjoy my time haha."

      If you guys keep having meaningless argue in here, you already become an entertaiment for Togashi for real lel. I also enjoy you guys' comments.....emmm, or more like conflict? o.o"

      I doubt Togashi did what he did to Alluka's gender just for the money and the "lels". Everything that happens in the manga has a reason, like how he foreshadows the next conflict by introducing it within the current one. He's just plain lazy to continue his manga, that's why.


      Tumblr mtzmeqC16Z1qcga5ro1 500

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      I'm not sure he can speak english to be honest...

      Well I can translate them if you want lel, but not in a very good Japanese. xd

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    • Honestly Japanese and Chinese already gave him some bad horrifics. Japanese called him "the mangaka that always postpone [his work]", sounds okay. But Chinese called him "the old geezer/the whacked thief (it has a pun meaning so I can't translate accurately)".

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    • Togashi is a lazy genius, we all agree.

      @Igneus Rock: It is pretty safe to assume Gotoh would have known if Alluka were a girl, he looks rather surprised by Killua's statement. Some of the translations had inverted commas, is it the same also in the official release?

      Anyway, it's not just Killua not correcting Morel on the phone (who, by the way, was repeating Killua's words) or Togashi's single mention of Alluka's sex, all the Zoldycks except for Killua treat Alluka as an object, they do not even care if Alluka's gender is male or female.

      If you say Alluka is a trans girl, then it's all good, that is what being discussed; but it has been made pretty clear it is no longer possible to say she has a female body, too.

      In any case, the author not remembering the gender of his characters or changing it on purpose is, sorry if I say it, a titally stupid idea that does not belong in the discussion. Unless you can prove that is the case, it is meaningless. Even if he said so long ago (how the hell can someone forget the gender of his characters? Anyway), the fact that he maintains an ambiguous position does not allow us to infer he has changed his mind until there is a clear contradiction or statement on his part.

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    • Martialmaniac wrote:
      Yes, but they do not know about Nanika, it is out of disrespect. While Alluka is most likely male (Killua clearly called him his "little brother" at the phone with Morel), Nanika is probably female, that is why he says he needs "her" powers and uses feminine pronouns when talking about them. 

      Yes, they do in fact know about Something(Nanika is translated into Something, which is actually a very strong point made in the anime, although some people don't realize it because the subs they watch didn't translate that word because it's a name), and I think that's why there's a conflict here. I think that since all of the Zoldyck's aside from Killua consider Something to be the main part, and the Something is male, however Killua, as can be seen when he tells Something not to come out anymore, focuses more on Alluka herself. I think that Alluka is female, while her nen counterpart, Something, is male. That's just my theory though.

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    • I also feel that Alluka is a girl and Nanika is a boy, their personalities are pretty different...Alluka is joyable and active, she used to call Killua as "onii-chan", but Nanika is calm and silent, he used to answer "'kay" instead of talking much, and also refer Killua as "Killua". Nanika means something, but the written Japanese is 闇 (yami) but not 何か (nanika), "yami" means "darkness" and it probably has some connection to the Dark Continent. So for me it's like two different souls using one body LOL.

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    • Why is this thread still active? Every point that can be made has been said by someone already, meaning every point is moot.

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    • Sango 珊瑚 wrote:
      I also feel that Alluka is a girl and Nanika is a boy, their personalities are pretty different...Alluka is joyable and active, she used to call Killua as "onii-chan", but Nanika is calm and silent, he used to answer "'kay" instead of talking much, and also refer Killua as "Killua". Nanika means something, but the written Japanese is 闇 (yami) but not 何か (nanika), "yami" means "darkness" and it probably has some connection to the Dark Continent. So for me it's like two different souls using one body LOL.

      Yeah, that's how I think of it too, except that I haven't gotten to the dark continent. I'm like chapter 120 or something, and I've finished both anime. But no Dark Continent.

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      Why is this thread still active? Every point that can be made has been said by someone already, meaning every point is moot.

      Well we just chit-chatting for sure LOL, not argument nor conflict. But due to the page restriction, I can't add my interlanguage and the used Japanese word for Nanika. orz So just talk "song (for fun in Chinese dialect)".

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    • SuprK1 wrote:

      Sango 珊瑚 wrote:
      I also feel that Alluka is a girl and Nanika is a boy, their personalities are pretty different...Alluka is joyable and active, she used to call Killua as "onii-chan", but Nanika is calm and silent, he used to answer "'kay" instead of talking much, and also refer Killua as "Killua". Nanika means something, but the written Japanese is 闇 (yami) but not 何か (nanika), "yami" means "darkness" and it probably has some connection to the Dark Continent. So for me it's like two different souls using one body LOL.

      Yeah, that's how I think of it too, except that I haven't gotten to the dark continent. I'm like chapter 120 or something, and I've finished both anime. But no Dark Continent.

      Honestly I also concern that the databook is a bit outdated, since it was released during year 2004, and now it is 2016. I believe Togashi (the clever yet lazy old man LOL, Chinese just called him "the wicked-rich yet low righteousness one", 冨樫義博 is written as 冨奸義薄) changed his idea a bit to elaborate his manga work. Another point is about the Land of Kinka in Dark Continent (I make a huge views on reading same subject with different languages in Wikipedia), people in there don't differentiate the genders and they call princes and princesses as "prince".

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    • Huh?

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    • Lel you seemed a bit confused. xd But I'm not sure how I simplified my words, what I had said was already simplified.

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    • Ah. I want to learn Japanese, but don't know much at all abuot it right now, so anything about that I might not understand, plus I haven't finished the manga, so that might be part of it too.

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    • Well I only watched the Yorknew arc, GI arc, Chimera Ant arc, and a very few of election arc LOL and I read nothing from manga because I get know that the 2011 version is more similar with manga version. orz But I get know some details when it comes to wiki. I'm sure you'll find out my point when you finish your manga lel. And I can say that Japanese loaned too much Chinese words, just put a bit of effort then you'll understand the simple ones. So I can say I get some benefits to understand what do they say, what special terms they use and so on.

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    • Ah. I watched all of both 1999, 2011, bth movies, all OVA, and the pilot, so I just need to catch up in the manga. I try never to get spoilers, so I don't know what the Dark Continent is yet.

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    • Yea, just wait for that old geezer's manga. I hope that he wouldn't hiatus again gawd, he's not young anymore... orz

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    • Ya know Alluka could have XXY syndrome.

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    • @all the people on this thread trying to disprove in any way that Alluka could possibly be a trans girl: we get it, you are transphobic. 

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    • There's always that one guy that comes in when people are having a genuine discussion. Whatever, I'm used to it at this point.

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    • Coolkid420 wrote:
      @all the people on this thread trying to disprove in any way that Alluka could possibly be a trans girl: we get it, you are transphobic. 

      I don't even know what trans is.

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    • How? It's all that people talk about on this thread.

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    • They talk about why he/she could or could not be trans, but they don't explain what it is.

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