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  • According to Shaiapouf - but this is undoubtedly true - a Nen puppet cannot be stronger than the ability user (rather, its power is usually many times weaker). Now, Hyakushiki Kannon is a Nen puppet: it is made out of emitted Nen and manipulated, just like every other Nen puppet. We all have seen how strong and fast its blows are, just think of "The One Hand" and you'll get the picture. So the point is: is Netero as strong as the statue?

    I think so. Since the statue follows Netero's motions, he has to be roughly as fast as its hands are. Sure, the statue is strengthened by at least two limitations I can think of (it is entirely dependent on Netero's movements and he needs to pray between attacks), but since Netero is an Enhancer, and formerly the best Nen user in the world, a Ko punch from him would probably be stronger than Uvogin's Big Bang Punch, by a good margin. Even in his old age, he probably retains a similar level of strength.

    At this point the question would be, if he is as strong as Hyakushiki Kannon, why use it? For range. The statue allows him to strike far away from the enemy, inflicting damage without risking being injured. Against the king, it makes perfectly sense.

    What do you think? Should we even mention the "puppets are weaker than originals" thing on his page?

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    • I've got a vague idea, but what Shiapouf said may only be true for thhe majority of Nen users, and not Nen masters on the level of Netero, Bisky or Zeno. After all, most Nen users are taught that they can only master their inert category, and their skill with each Nen type decreases the further they get away from their own, yet Nen masters like the ones I mentioned previously have completely debunked this statement by incorporating nearly all aspects of Nen into their Hatsu's and with startling effectiveness.

      So knowing this, it may be that while Morel and Pouf are fearsome Nen users in their own regard, they simply haven't reached the level where their Nen puppets are equal in power to them. Netero on the other hand who may well be the most skilled Nen user on the planet might have been able to reach this point with his 100 type Guanyin Bodhisattva, and make it as powerful as he is. Although saying this, I suppose it depends on how you define power. Logically speaking, his Guanyin Bodhisattva should be doing less damage than him since its hands have a much larger surface area than his fists for instance, therefor distributing the power of there blows. This segways nicely into your second question, why would he use it?

      In terms of most of his combat encounters, I'd imagine he wouldn't, since as seen in his flashback while fighting Meruem, he could finish almost all of his opponents off with a single strike. And, fore encounters that required more than a single strike, his Hatsu would just add to a larger array of ways he could approach a situation. And in his battle with Meruem for instance, it wasn't just about inflicting damage without any risk of danger, it was about surviving a fight he couldn't win, since any other technique would have undoubtedly ended with his demise. Contradicting my previous statement, the Bodhisattva also probably hit harder than Netero could have in his current state. While punches may have been more efficient in his earlier years and while he was certainly fit in his old age, using his Nen while detaching it from his body would probably have allowed his too hit harder without risking damage to a body that may not be able to keep up with it.

      In conclusion, I think that Pouf's statement is true in most cases, since the majority of Nen users are not on the scale of Netero, but we should mention him and his Hatsu as being an exception too that rule.

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    • That's a good point. I too think what Pouf said is not valid if we are talking about a Nen master who is making only one puppet (although I don't believe it ca be stronger than the user without severe limitations) and has set some limitations to the ability. I wonder if mass/weight/kinetic energy apply to emitted aura...

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    • I'm fairly certain it does. After all, Killua said that the the Nen razor applied to the Volly Ball made it as heavy as a bowling ball, and the faster the balls were throw, the more damage they did on impact.

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    • Sorry, I wasn't clear: we have indeed seen that aura increases kinetic energy, but what about things that are entirely made out of pure aura? Bah, whatever.

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    • Well, the same thing happens when razor throws his pure Nen balls I believe. Or maybe I'm just making that up.

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    • Since all his targets have gone "Boom", it's hard to say. Though t's most likely as you said.

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    • Well, if we use the old F = ma, then the Bodhisvatta should have more force than Netero if they punch with the same acceleration... actually, the Bodhisvatta punches faster than Netero since its palm has to travel a greater distance than Netero in the same amount of time, so its force should be much greater than Netero's. Even with the greater surface area, its force should be much greater in magnitude, thereby causing greater pressure.

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    • AWAY WITH YOUR LOGIC!!!!

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    • DinoTaur wrote:
      Well, if we use the old F = ma, then the Bodhisvatta should have more force than Netero if they punch with the same acceleration... actually, the Bodhisvatta punches faster than Netero since its palm has to travel a greater distance than Netero in the same amount of time, so its force should be much greater than Netero's. Even with the greater surface area, its force should be much greater in magnitude, thereby causing greater pressure.

      Thta's why I said "roughly as fast as", but I was trying to establish whether it was relevant to the power of the strikes or not.

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    • Martialmaniac wrote:
      DinoTaur wrote:
      Well, if we use the old F = ma, then the Bodhisvatta should have more force than Netero if they punch with the same acceleration... actually, the Bodhisvatta punches faster than Netero since its palm has to travel a greater distance than Netero in the same amount of time, so its force should be much greater than Netero's. Even with the greater surface area, its force should be much greater in magnitude, thereby causing greater pressure.
      Thta's why I said "roughly as fast as", but I was trying to establish whether it was relevant to the power of the strikes or not.

      I wouldn't say roughly. It's faster by a whole lot.

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    • DinoTaur wrote:
      Martialmaniac wrote:
      DinoTaur wrote:
      Well, if we use the old F = ma, then the Bodhisvatta should have more force than Netero if they punch with the same acceleration... actually, the Bodhisvatta punches faster than Netero since its palm has to travel a greater distance than Netero in the same amount of time, so its force should be much greater than Netero's. Even with the greater surface area, its force should be much greater in magnitude, thereby causing greater pressure.
      Thta's why I said "roughly as fast as", but I was trying to establish whether it was relevant to the power of the strikes or not.
      I wouldn't say roughly. It's faster by a whole lot.

      I didn't want to be fastidious for once, should I change it? Well, we actually can't be sure if Netero and the statue complete their respective movements at the same time, though it's likely.

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    • Martialmaniac wrote:
      DinoTaur wrote:
      Martialmaniac wrote:
      DinoTaur wrote:
      Well, if we use the old F = ma, then the Bodhisvatta should have more force than Netero if they punch with the same acceleration... actually, the Bodhisvatta punches faster than Netero since its palm has to travel a greater distance than Netero in the same amount of time, so its force should be much greater than Netero's. Even with the greater surface area, its force should be much greater in magnitude, thereby causing greater pressure.
      Thta's why I said "roughly as fast as", but I was trying to establish whether it was relevant to the power of the strikes or not.
      I wouldn't say roughly. It's faster by a whole lot.
      I didn't want to be fastidious for once, should I change it? Well, we actually can't be sure if Netero and the statue complete their respective movements at the same time, though it's likely.

      Oh, I see. I think they do complete their movements in the same time, otherwise Meruem would have picked up on a lag. Stating the puppet thing might be somewhat misleading given the physics of Netero's attack, that's all.

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    • Right. Doesn't this make the Manipulation Nen Netero uses faster than light? I mean, for the two actions (cause=Netero moving; effect=statue moving) to occur simultaneously. I'm overthinking things now.

      Anyway, from what we have seen in the series, I'm pretty sure aura (including Nen puppets and excluding conjured objects) has no weight, but its force does increase with its speed. Which is impossible, but we are talking about something that goes beyond the normal laws of physics... not to mention it's fictional.

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    • Nen and aura clearly have weight, since we have seen several instances of this throughout the show, and it's force increases with speed as seen when bisky threw a very, very very, VERY slow punch at killua when all of her aura was focused onto her fist.

      And no, Netero's Nen is not faster than light... ALl that means is that his Aura was moving faster than him, to the point where the two appeared to be moving simultaneously.

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    • Pigzillion wrote:
      Nen and aura clearly have weight, since we have seen several instances of this throughout the show, and it's force increases with speed as seen when bisky threw a very, very very, VERY slow punch at killua when all of her aura was focused onto her fist.

      And no, Netero's Nen is not faster than light... ALl that means is that his Aura was moving faster than him, to the point where the two appeared to be moving simultaneously.

      You got me wrong on both topics: what I meant is that aura can generate force, which increases with speed, but does not have a mass, so it does not have a weight either. Objects enhanced with aura seems heavier because weight is a force, which is added to their mass, but aura itself has none.

      Also, what I meant is that if Netero and the statue move simultaneously, that is the only solution, but mine was merely a provocation, since some Nen types basically alter reality. However, if they appear to move at the same time, it's as you said.

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    • Alright, you're confusing me now. Weight is a force, but weight by definition is the force of gravity acting upon a mass. Therefore, Nen cannot increase an objects weight without possessing somekind of mass itself. It's physically impossible. And because it has a mass, it can gain momentum, which is the reason aura seems to increase in power as it increases in velocity. In fact, aura seems to possess many of the properties of plasma, a 4th state of matter different from solid's, liquids and gases, which, like the latter 3, also has a mass.

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    • That's what I said, Nen goes against traditional physics because it does not have a mass, but benefits from speed. The concept of Nen itself (lfe energy) goes beyond physics. Besides, energy does not have a mass, right? If it were as you said, a Nen user should become heavier the more aura they use, and this would mean that they would produce mass out of nothing every time they release their aura.

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    • Aura does have mass though! If it didn't it would interact with matter the way it does. When Razors Nen balls hit things, they go boom. When razor throws them faster, they make a bigger boom. This would only be possible if a physical object interacted with the thing that went boom. And besides, I never said that aura was energy(which doesn't have mass), I said it was plasma. One theory II think may be possible as to how Nen users don't weigh obscene amount despite the level's of matter they hold, is that they don't hold that much aura at all times. Rather, their bodies contain extremely high levels of chemical energy(which doesn't have mass remember), and when they wish to expend this energy, their bodies produce aura, which is a medium from which this energy is transferred through.

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    • Aura is called life energy... and as for Razor's balls, that's not true. Bopobo's head did not explode, it was destroyed by the impact, at least in the manga. Plus, even if it had exploded, we know that Transmutation can be used to cause explosions. In regard to your theory, what produces that chemical energy? Why does it suddenly appear when aura is used? Plasma is basically a state of matter anyway (and aura lacks its planet-killing heat). Even if you were right, Togashi surely hasn't planned to go that far in the mechanics of aura. From all we've read I think it's impossible for aura to have a mass, even though it's not a conventional form of energy either, more like a new one, which is capable of exerting or increasing a force even though it lacks a mass and volume. I repeat, we don't have any proof in any direction, we could as well stop speculating and going off-topic.

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    • Aura gives a volume the properties of having more mass without actually having it.

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    • That's a good way of summing it up. Thanks.

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    • Perhaps it's a new particle that the characters in the series simple regard as life force, because they have no other way of explaining it. Also, MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!

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    • This is really off-topic, but indeed, if one really wanted to be scientific, then you could describe some aura phenomena as aura changing the properties of matter. For example:

      • Razor's ball causes the air within the sphere to condense and harden to the point where it's like being hit by a cannonball (Emission).
      • Hisoka's Bungee Gum causes air to become adhesive and elastic (Transmutation).
      • Gon's Rock focuses aura such in his fist such that it increases its force as if it had more mass (Enhancement).
      • Kurapika's chains are formed by him turning air into iron alloys by forcing protons in sub-atomic particles of air to move and form ionic bonds, and then arranging these ions in a chain shape (Conjuration).
      • Morel's smoke is controlled by kinetic energy released from aura at his will (Manipulation).
      • Specialization is harder since it involves more abstract concepts. I'll add one if I can think of one.
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    • It's a nice theory, but if all Hatsu techniques were based off of changing the properties of atoms in air, it would have been more evident in the show. Imagine Bonolenov and his Battle Cantabile: Jupiter for instance. The amount of air that would need to be absorbed in order to create a body of that magnitude would be immense to the point of absurdity, and this doesn't explain why Non nen users can't see aura if it's simply air with special properties. 

      Like I said, it's possible that Nen is some form of new particle that affects other forms of matter in ways the characters simply regard as life force or aura, somply because they can't explain it in any other way. Or, it could be that since they come from a different universe, Nen users in the hunter x hunter world can hold extremly high levels of chemical energy in their cells, which when they want to expend, is transformed into aura inside their bodis, before being released through the pours Wing spoke of when explaining Nen to Gon and Killua.

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    • I'll go with "entirely new physical concept", it's easier, and discuss the details when we have more info. Merry Christmas!

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    • The statue is not as strong as the chairman himself, in the aspect of speed as it's clearly shown as such. The sole reason to why the statue has many arms, outside of sticking true to the source of inspiration, is that Netero is significantly faster than the statue and as such the statue could only keep up with Netero's real speed by having many arms to act as a compensation, especially whenever the chairman decides to do a combination attack.

      The statue most likely don't have the same punching power as Netero himself too, it's not directly stated but I think it's pretty obvious as he's an Enhancer and not an natural Emitter (so the efficiency of the smitted statue is capped at 80%).

      In the aspect of endurance however, Netero should be more durable than the statue if we consider them seperately. But during the time he uses the statue, he actually has rather minimal amount of Nen on himself considering he's poured much of it onto the statue itself; he leaves only the amount needed to get lightspeed hand motions while the rest seems to all go to the statue. When you're using Nen not of your own natural type, you will cost you more energy and still perform worse than experienced users who have those as their natural type. As such, when Netero is using the technique, his body is actually rather fragile, which is also why he got easily shred by Meruem when the latter got into melee range after bypassing the statue's attack.

      So does it mean the Hyakushiki Kannon is a bad technique?

      Not exactly. Though the statue is not as powerful as the chairman himself, nor is the statue capable of keeping up with Netero's real speed, and it leaves the chairman very vulnerable should his attack for whatever reason, misses; however it's still a wonderful Hatsu.

      Reason being this 1 simple factor: Range. And as a cherry on top: Speed.

      Uvogin despite being one of the strongest melee character in the entire series, capable of throwing punches so strong it creates craters on the ground as if a missile blew up there. Yet he still lost, because he is in the end of the day, just 1 very strong human being and any ability with some layers of trickery could simply do him in no problem, assuming the enemy could manage to keep up with Uvo.

      Netero's Hyakushiki Kannon fixes this problem by keeping enemies at bay and makes them outright unable to get close to pull tricks on him while he delivers extremely fast and devastating attacks from afar some distance away (a little like Emitter's general fighting logic where they want to keep enemies from getting close to them for the most part, but Netero uses the statue specically to act as both his spear and shield at the same time by having the statue to scale with his own godly enhanced speed). While perhaps sacrificing some raw stats, it is traded for much higher survivability with the inclusion of range. And considering he's already unreal-ly strong to begin with, he doesn't really care about some 20% of his power tradeoff when using the statue (as an Enhancer, he at best could utilise Emission up to 80%), since even with that handicap the statue is still strong as all hell and attacks at speeds outright impossible to be avoided by the vast majority of human Nen users.

      The reason to Netero's defeat solely stems from his decades of inactivity. Should he was really in his prime, he really could have beaten the bio-demigod in the form of Meruem.

      Hyakushiki Kannon is one of the most well thought-out ability in the entire series.

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    • As Dino has clarified before, the statue is much faster than Netero, as seen by the fact that it appears to complete their movements at the same time; the statue has to move a larger distance in order to do this, meaning it travels faster than Netero himself. In short, no, Netero is not faster than The Bodhisattva.

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    • It is highly likely Netero was still well gaurded with aura during the 100 types use, Razor was still gaurded by a decent amount of aura although he was using a decend amount of puppets, same for Kurapika with his chains. Hatsu don't often seem to actually take too much away form the aura they have protecting their bodies, and there has never been a time I remember when a hatsu actually took the aura away from their body leaving them ungaurded, save enhancer hatsu that utilize Ko(and Pitou's Dr. Blyce)... an example of aura still being clearly available even during hatsu use, is Palms hair hatsu, that allowed her to focus her aura on physcially attacking. Also Netero has a large pool of aura at his disposal, given Meruem's power Netero just did not at all have the durabilty to stand up to him, nor did he possess the attack power to kill him using Nen and martial arts. So even Netero at his prime would get wrecked by pre-rose Meruem, he would just mabey last a bit longer.

      Adult Gon is a good example of how powerful the Royal Ants hits were, (going by logic) he is probably the most durable human character ever seen, much more durable than Netero and more so than even Uvogin, and although he was not paying attention and even if it wasn't focused with Ko or Ryu, Mr. Gon was probably still shrouded in uber powerful aura when Pitou tore off his arm (cause why wouldn't he be realistcally speaking) and a Royal Gaurd, an Ant lower than the King was able to rip right through him, skin, muscle, bone, and all. Going by that scaling no human character yet shown in the series can tank one clean blow from Pitou, so Netero would get ripped apart by pre-rose Meruem even in his prime unless he is much more durable than Adult Gon(whcih is highly unlikely), based soley on what we have seen... 

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    • Pigzillion wrote: As Dino has clarified before, the statue is much faster than Netero, as seen by the fact that it appears to complete their movements at the same time; the statue has to move a larger distance in order to do this, meaning it travels faster than Netero himself. In short, no, Netero is not faster than The Bodhisattva.

      Untrue.

      If the anime is to be gone by, the statue is really not off the same speed capability as Netero.

      Example 1: When Netero stroke Pitou, the statue only started attacking a while after Netero finished his swipe move (in slow motion time scale).

      Example 2: During "First Hand", it is only after Netero performed a chop and several after images caught up to him, that the statue initiated the attack, and noticeably slower than Netero's chop.

      Example 3: During the heat of the battle, Netero in defence of Meruem's continuous attacks, he used combination attacks to keep him out of range. The statue is seen using multiple arms to achieve the rate of attacking Netero could do with 2 arms, again pointing towards the notion that it is slower than Netero.

      Example 4: When Netero stroke Meruem with a downward palm strike, pushing the latter into a pillar, there is a slow motion shot where the statue's palm only went past Netero a slight while after he'd completed the motion.

      Sure the statue needs to travel more distance but even with that being taken into account, in extreme slow mo (ie the time scale Netero moves in), the speed lag is pretty apparent.

      There IS a lag between Netero and the statue, it's just that both of them are godly fast as such the 20% speed lag means nothing. Meruem did not pick up the lag because he was never able to fully see what was really going on, as in the entire fight he was just chasing after Netero's after images (at first he could not even see what hit him). Meruem throughout the fight got used to Netero's pattern and was able to anticipate his next move, which got him his first hit, but that is not because he could really keep up with Netero with his eyes. In fact the sole reason to why he successflly got through the statue after predicting Netero's strike was all thanks to the lag between Netero and the statue, so he managed to dodge it just barely, giving him the edge.

      The anime adaptation is valid for a few reasons: 1. It is a faithful adaptation and they consulted Togashi on many things during the production. 2. Extremely minor details such as the speed difference is next to impossibility to illustrate in still images of the manga, as such we shouldn't expect manga to show us that. 3. Togashi was EXTREMELY lazy when he was drawing the Chimera Ant arc, so Togashi wouldn't even portray the speed difference in the manga even if he could.

      That's why I used anime as my reference. And yes, the statue is slower than Netero. Again, Netero does not mind the delay because 20% speed handicap from his light speed strikes really mounts up to very negligible differences as a whole, while the statue provides him the much needed range.

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    • I wonder, if I had a stealing ability. Could I steal Neteros Hatsu and use it on my own?

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    • Diwo wrote: I wonder, if I had a stealing ability. Could I steal Neteros Hatsu and use it on my own?

      You can, theoretically at least.

      You see, to steal somebody's ability as a Specialist (the only Nen type that allows this action), you must have a few to many hardships to clear through before the stealing takes place, depending on the permanency of the stolen ability (refer to Leol and Chrollo). And in one way or another, you have to be within somewhat close range of the person you're trying to steal from, usually engaging in something, to serve as one of the pre-requisites to complete the "contract" in which the target "signs" to allow the stealing to take place. Leol has to have helped the target in some way, and the "debt" has to be confirmed by both sides in order to steal, and even then he could only use the stolen ability for 1 hour before them being forcibly returned; hence to steal Netero's Buddha to be used for any considerable amount of time or permanently, you have to really risk it in Chrollo style, where his method involves multiple close interactions on top of a time limit in which the entire sequence is restricted in.

      Now, considering the instant the Buddha is summoned, anything within its reach is effectively as good as horse meat. While in theory it's entirely possible to steal it, but practically I just don't think so, as the instant a suspicion is raised, you've already died 10 times. And I doubt you could drag the whole process out either, making the chances even more bleak.

      But even if you did somehow manage to steal it, you will not use it as remotely effective as the Chairman anyway. As the ungodly speed in which Netero moves in to command the statue with is not a part of the ability called Hyakushiki Kannon, but rather it's his natural speed after he had trained for so long to be able to reach the pinnacle of Enhancement Nen, casually performing his impossible speed effortlessly and more or less subconsciously. When you steal an ability, you only steal the ability, any quality outside of that ability itself, surrounding and/or assist it do not come in the package. Think of the Buddha as a powerful sword, but its true strength however, comes from the wielder themselves; you can only steal the sword, but you can never steal the sword master's own strength.

      There is a reason to why the only 2 characters shown so far that can steal abilities generally prefer Manipulation, Conjuration and Specialist Hatsu, as those abilities tend to be self-contained and specific (not always but usually), making stealing them definitely more worthwhile as they more often than not are easier to apply and use to the max potential after obtaining them than the upper 3 Nen types (Enhancement, Emission and Transmutation) that are often basic and require the user's own finesse to make the most out of them.

      So all in all, I say it's both next to impossible to steal practically and pointless to.

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    • "I Want a Stand" by me wrote: stuff


      Ah, I understand - so I would have to train like crazy for decades to get it to Neteros speed and strenght. But still, I think the ability itself would be still as useful without Neteros speed and strenght

      I dreamed about copying/stealing the ability so I could use it as my last resort

      Lately I started to think about it, what ability I would have if I would be in the Hunter Universe and my first thought was specilization as my nen type. My ability would be some sort of ability that can copy other abilities or an ability that can steal other abilities after dead

      Anyways, thanks for answering my question so fast! Seems like you are a nen master (hihihi)

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    • Puppets created by Nen (irregardless from what Nen Type User created it) is indeed slightly weaker than the creator themselves because it needs an additional type of Nen Power to be use to control them - Manipulation. One cannot create a puppet with only 1 single NEN type use, it always need a combination of this three types: Conjuration, Manipulation & Emission.....except in some rare cases and exemption from those who were born from Specialist type. When you create any puppet by nen, you cannot let it act on its own (since it does not have a brain or its own intellect) without some sort of commands, that is why it is highly recommended to give it a simple & precise command to maximize the attack/execution. Normally, a puppet uses "Manipulation & Emission" types of Nen.

      Even if someone from Emission type Nen user for example was able to master his 100% Natural Nen Power then it would be like this:

      90% Puppet attack + 10% Manipulation to create and initiate the attack

      It would be completely different if the attack came directly from the emitter themselves - Best example? Razor vs Gon's Team dodgeball game and Morells's deep purple ability.

      Ofcourse there are some additional points to consider to calculate the maximum power of an attack from the Puppet:

      1. Nen User's vows & limitations/contract

      2. Nen User's emotion

      3. Type of attack and place condition

      this tiny little aspects can affect life and death in battle againts two trained Nen Users

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    • A FANDOM user
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